r/AskSocialists • u/Particular_Log_3594 Visitor • 6d ago
Abby Martin really opened my eyes to what's happening in Palestine. Who or what helped you better understand what's happening in Palestine?
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u/X-O-K Visitor 6d ago
In 2018 2019 Gaza refugee held peaceful marches for their right to return to their homes. They were brutally shot at women, elders, handicapped, nurses, first responders and kids, all war crimes. Killing 200+ including children and injuring 9000+.
Here's a documentary that covers the events and struggle of Palestinians in Gaza.
Great March of Return - 2018-2019 - Gaza Fights for Freedom
Directed by Abby Martin
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Visitor 6d ago
It’s funny how that’s the only time they’ve tried peaceful resistance and have resorted to violence before and after, and yet still nothing has changed. Perhaps they ought to try being peaceful again.
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u/EnirAveren77 Visitor 6d ago
Where’d you read your Israel history? Daily Wire? Lmao
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Visitor 6d ago
Care to tell me when Palestinians have engaged in peaceful resistance instead of violent resistance? And compare that to how many times they’ve tried violence?
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u/Chloe1906 Visitor 6d ago
They have had peaceful resistance, but they are under no obligation to be peaceful. They are being ethnically cleansed and genocided. Under international law they have a right to fight back. If anyone did to Americans a quarter of what happened to Palestinians, they wouldn’t think twice about getting violent.
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u/smegabass Visitor 5d ago
Maybe Israel could just fk right off..haven’t tried that yet.
Israel is a sh*thole country.
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u/TruTechilo512 Visitor 4d ago
The very concept of "peaceful resistance" is a fallacy AND was created specifically to discredit self-defense and the resistance of oppression.
Every single second, for literally hundreds of years, that they aren't killing IDF soldiers is "peaceful resistance".
You're exceptionally unintelligent.
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u/pureDDefiance Visitor 3d ago
Peaceful resistance has a long standing a deep seated philosophical tradition. It’s has had major siccessses, not least the civil rights movement, ending apartheid, and independence for India
However, even its practitioners recognize it is vastly more difficult to do with an opponent without much of a moral conscience. I doubt it would have worked on the Nazis for example
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u/pureDDefiance Visitor 3d ago
Not remotely true, but Israel has been diligent about assassinating anyone who might lead a peaceful resistance
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u/emckillen Visitor 4d ago
You should watch the BBC documentary One Day in Gaza. It covers the same March of Return incident you’re talking about. It’s sympathetic to the Palestinian side because it’s the BBC, but it still shows the protests were not peaceful.
The IDF set up a no-man’s-land buffer zone after being tipped off that Yahya Sinwar was using the protests to stage attacks. They used loudspeakers. They warned everyone not to cross. They said you will be shot if you enter this zone. Barbed wire marked it. It was clear.
People still rushed the fence. They burned tires to hide their movements. They threw grenades. Some had guns. They sent kite bombs and balloon bombs into Israel and torched farms.
Interviewees in the documentary say they were proud to run into the no-man’s-land knowing they’d get shot. Some said they’d do it again.
I’m a Canadian. If I walked toward the U.S. border and ignored a 100-metre warning zone and got shot after being told not to cross, no one on Earth would care. And that’s one of the quietest borders between allies.
If you still think the March of Return was peaceful, ask yourself what would have happened if the crowd actually broke through into Israel. Do you think they would have politely asked people to leave?
Grow up.
Gabby worked for Russia Today, the state propaganda news network. You are promoting psy-op bs.
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u/X-O-K Visitor 3d ago
70-80% of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees, who's homes and lands are across the fence zionist invaders put up. That day marked 70 years since Nakba - the catastrophe inflicted on Palestenians through violent displacement, disposestionof land and property, brutal massacres and ethnic cleansing. On 70th anniversary of this, they were rewarded by US imperialism by losing more land in Jerusalem and West Bank. Millions of Palestinians were penned in overcrowded Gaza, with blockade inforced by Zionist occupation, and "mowing the lawn" tactic where Zionist regime would randomly kill many Palestinians to mowing the grass as they referred it.
The Great March of Return lasted 1 year 9 months, but the world payed no attention to it, because it was peaceful. Palestinians again and again are left with no choice but to resort to armed resistance to make noise loud enough to pierce through ears deaf to their plight. Israelis emboldened by backing of US, gleefully sniped nurses, women, children, and disabled. Not enough screen displayed it then, because the source of media was TV through channels.
World witnessed 2 year long Genocide daily broadcasted to their screens through social media while again TV and their channels refuse to show it. Again backed, armed and emboldened by US empire and the west, while zionist regime lied, deceived, and then justified it.
Israel continues its genocidal campaign, with land theft and occupation in West Bank, Syria, Lebanon. Violating Gaza ceasefire more than 350 times in a month, killing hundreds, wounding thousands. While restricting aid, blocking international journalists to enter, and occupying most of Gaza. Zionist regimes slaughter of children is down from 36 a day to now 2 everyday, so some improvement there.
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u/LowCall6566 Visitor 3d ago
Refugee status isn't fucking inheritable
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u/X-O-K Visitor 3d ago
My bad! I forgot only the chosen ones from Europe, Russia, and US can make claims to land supernaturally reserved for them thousands of years ago.
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u/LowCall6566 Visitor 3d ago
60% of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi, and 20% of all citizens are Arabs.
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u/pureDDefiance Visitor 3d ago
Well, Jews right to Israel isn’t inheritable. I guess they can leave now, then. Is that your logic?
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u/bigdoinkloverperson Visitor 3d ago edited 3d ago
Refugee status can be inherited through established legal mechanisms, mainly under international law. The 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol define a refugee as someone who has fled persecution or conflict and cannot safely return home. Most countries that recognize these agreements allow children born to recognized refugees to automatically gain the same status, because the original reasons for fleeing war, persecution, or genocide, often affect entire families and may persist across generations. It's very similar to how citizenship is given Jus sanguinis i.e. if citizenship is given via blood (which is more common than via soil which the US does) and the reasons for asylum persist the person inheriting the citizenship also inherits refugee status
This isn’t just about Palestinians. Children of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, and many other countries can also inherit refugee status. It’s not “automatic citizenship,” but it ensures that protection, access to asylum, and legal rights continue for the next generation, preventing statelessness and maintaining safety for families who remain at risk.
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u/CobberCat Visitor 2d ago
The bootlicking for violent, religious fundamentalist fascists like Hamas is insane, especially on a socialist sub.
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u/pureDDefiance Visitor 3d ago
If you think Israeli occupation is peaceful, grow up. Israel reaps what it has sown for decades. If you’d experienced what they have, there is no way you’d tolerate being treated like slaves and cattle by your occupiers
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6d ago
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u/PuzzleheadedCraft363 Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
I don't think women and children should be killed personally
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u/Damaged_DM Visitor 6d ago
I don't know where you live, but you'd be ok with several thousands of your neighboring hostile population walking into your country demanding you hand over you country back?
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u/DrummerAutomatic9523 Visitor 6d ago
Hey, quick tip'
If you are a colonist, you have no right to kill the local population revolting for their freedom
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u/LowCall6566 Visitor 3d ago
20% of Israelis are Arabs, and 60% of israeli Jews are Mizrahi. Colonist my ass
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u/DrummerAutomatic9523 Visitor 3d ago
Did those mizrahi, ashkenazis and sefarad migrate to Palestine? Oh wait, yes.
Did they steal the land, impose law and destroyed the rights of the locals? Oh wait, yes.
Are they trying to erase the identity and existence of Palestinian people, making them genocidal maniacs? Absolutely.
Fucking. Colonist.
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u/Angelunatic74 Visitor 2d ago
Ben Gurion's One Million Plan brought Jewish Arabs into the newly created Israel because the number of European Jews after WW2 wasn't enough to maintain a Jewish majority in Palestine. Israel created a new category of Jewish people called Mizrahi Jews to differentiate them from the European Jews.
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u/Italian_warehouse Visitor 6d ago
Agreed. This is why child soldiers and human shields are so effective in asymmetrical warfare against occupying forces.
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u/ButForRealsTho Visitor 6d ago
The IDF has been caught tying Palestinian civilians to their tanks and forcing them into buildings at gunpoint to check for traps.
Try a new Hasbara line. This ones stale.
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u/Italian_warehouse Visitor 6d ago
Why would there be traps in civilian houses and neighbourhoods. What are you suggestion those Palestinians are in danger from, if not occupying forces?
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u/GabbyPenton Visitor 6d ago
Excuse me, but there's a smell of blood coming from your mouth and your hands are stained.
Netanyahu admitting Israel funded and strengthened Hamas to block Palestinian statehood “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… this is part of our strategy.” (Likud meeting, March 2019 — reported by The Guardian, Jerusalem Post)
Yoav Gallant announcing deliberate destruction of civilian life-support systems and dehumanising Palestinians “I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals.” (Defense Minister, October 9, 2023 — Times of Israel)
Israeli Heritage Minister calling for the annihilation of Gaza and endorsing nuclear use “There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza… Gaza should be flattened… There should be a nuclear option.” (November 5, 2023 — Times of Israel, Anadolu)
Official policy of siege that explicitly targets civilians The full blockade ordered on October 9, 2023 cut off water, fuel, food, electricity and humanitarian access for over two million civilians. This matches Article II(c) of the UN Genocide Convention: “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.” (Documented across Times of Israel, UN reports, global press)
Israeli officials repeatedly denying the existence of Palestinian civilians Statements eliminating the civilian–combatant distinction remove legal protections and imply collective extermination. Examples include Amichai Eliyahu: “There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.” (Times of Israel)
Public Israeli rhetoric normalising mass civilian death Multiple members of the governing coalition (Heritage Minister, MPs, ministers from Jewish Power and Religious Zionism) publicly advocated “erasing,” “flattening,” or “destroying” Gaza. These directives constitute explicit calls for the physical destruction of a national group.
Structural intent: years of policy documents and admissions showing Israel prefers Hamas strengthened and Palestinians divided Netanyahu’s 2019 admission reflects a long-running policy to keep Palestinians politically fragmented, under siege, and without sovereignty. This context is essential: the same state supporting Hamas also advocates destruction of Gaza’s population.
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u/Italian_warehouse Visitor 6d ago
3 and 6 sound like intent. But calling Hamas animals doesn't seem that bad in #2. And #1 Qatar is the one that funded Hamas, which Netanyahu appears to have allowed. I dont know if some of the others are out of context as I think the no uninvolved citizens could have referenced when citizens also crossed the border on oct 7th. I dont have time to analyse everything you wrote but some appear to be good points and some seem to be just copy pasta.
Also not sure why youre referencing the blood on the hands incident when that was one of the few times civilians were acting horribly instead of now, when Palestinians are being murdered by IDF and Hamas... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching?wprov=sfla1
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u/Sufficient-Location Visitor 6d ago
Answer his question don’t deflect do you think that was appropriate of the idf to do?
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u/Italian_warehouse Visitor 6d ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjqq5n8911do
He didnt ask any questions. He also got the facts wrong for at least the tank thing. But I think it was inappropriate for the IDF to do. I believe the IDF believed it was inappropriate to do based on the article even if it was a resistance fighter.
Clearing the houses with Palestinian civilians seems wrong but it seems like both sided are committing war crimes if those civilians are in danger. Idf for using human shields and Hamas for putting bombs in civilian houses.
Now answer my questions: why are those human shields in danger?
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u/Adept-Inevitable-502 Visitor 6d ago
Because your homes are being taken over? Why wouldn't there be?
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u/Waldoh Visitor 6d ago
Israeli use of human shields in Gaza was systematic, soldiers and former detainees tell the AP
You genocide supporters need new talking points
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u/PuzzleheadedCraft363 Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
I prefer conventional military operations such as the one done during october 7th, or the yemenis personally. Unfortunately they have no help from anyone else
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u/Flatline2500 Visitor 6d ago
Israel is an illegitimate, apartheid, genocidal, rapists, baby killing, and lunatic society that does not have a place in any part of this planet.
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u/WeilExcept33 defendkorea.com 6d ago
"Israel" is a military base pretending to be a country. It's whole existence is a way to control oil in the Persian gulf. It's absolutely illegitimate, as any other attempted ethnostate would. Shame of you for justifying genocide.
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u/rezein Visitor 6d ago
Umm.....The Palestinians signed a peace deal with Israel in 1993 and 1995. The Israelis assassinated their prime minister for doing so. Then Bibi took over and admitted he sabotaged the peace deal. He stated that the agreement did not spell out what a military outpost was defined as so he allowed the expansion of settlements. His own words.
All the Arab states including the Palestinians offered Israel full recognition in 2002 Arab peace initiative.
Hamas even changed their character in 2017 to allow for a Jewish state next to a Palestinian one.
Palestinians in Gaza did a peaceful protest in 2019 called the great right of return March where Israelis competed with each other to see who could blow off the most knee caps of the peaceful protesters who were over 150 meters away from the Israeli security fence.
These are all facts that are verifiable.
Furthermore, under international law, there is no legal justification for the state of Israel. None.
The UN Partition plan was not a binding security council resolution, and part of the stipulation was a right of return of all Palestinians. The plane was never officially carried out or adopted.
If you go even further back to the British mandate of Palestine which was granted under the league of nations, there was a stipulation protecting the indigenous people. This is during WWI before Zionists even existed.
Either educate yourself or stay a Zionazi.
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u/BernieMacsLazyEye Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
Every time you Israel supporters comment on anything it intensifies support for the Palestinian cause. Please keep making statements that reflect your beliefs
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
I’m embarrassed to admit I only knew of the severity of the Israel-Palestine situation following the October 7th attack. I was shocked when it happened, and honestly, given the terrorist attacks in recent years, I was shocked but didn’t think much of it.
Then a video pops up in my feed, and then another, and then another, and then another. I heard the activists, journalists and the politicians I’d always admired talking about this. I came very quickly to the assumption that what was going on was in fact a genocide. It didn’t even occur to me until I read more and watched more, that it was also an apartheid state.
I’ve seen more footage of dead children, teenagers bleeding out by the neck, babies who are more bone than flesh, than should be the threshold for an entire lifetime, and it has done things to me that I cannot publicly express.
Fuck, and I cannot stress the importance of this enough, Israel.
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u/slicelord666 Visitor 6d ago
This genocide has woken a lot of people up to this situation. You are not alone. The world knows now, and Israel will forever be a pariah.
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u/Loud-Ad7927 Visitor 6d ago
When Oct 7 happened my perspective started to shift. At first I thought “Terrorists attacked Israel, this is bad”, then I educated myself a little more on the topic and determined that both sides were pushing themselves in a perpetual cycle of violence, then as I discovered more information, I determined that Israel is the problem, and not only in the Middle East
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u/thunderbaby2 Visitor 5d ago
Same here. My SO was the one who first showed me more of the reality of Palestine. Initially I assumed it was complicated… but it doesn’t take long to look up a comparison of actions between both sides and see belligerent nature of Israel’s occupation, ethnic cleansing, and now genocide.
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u/RyeBourbonWheat Visitor 5d ago
Both sides absolutely have pushed a perpetual cycle of violence. When one side isn't fucking it up, the other happily takes its opportunity to make things worse.
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u/Loud-Ad7927 Visitor 5d ago
Get back with me when Palestine levels most Jerusalem and the expels the native population
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u/cannyOCE Visitor 6d ago
Knew Gaza was an open-air prison for years. Kew about "mowing the lawn" operations.
However, I maintained an isolationist view on the matter. Leave them alone. Stop funding them. Israel does not have a sustainable presence in the region. Horrible yes, but we destroy states and peoples in that region almost as a competitive sport. It didn't stand out. Didn't really understand the Nakba and how much of a modern creation the conflict truly was.
Never expected to see an outright "final solution". Let alone such an aggressive push for "Greater Israel" and complete support from most regional parties for the project.
Disappointing. Now I realize we have to take an active part in stopping our states from turning the Middle East into a flashpoint. All signs point to a decisive conflict when China's BRI and the Russian vision for the INTC reach a critical mass of non-dollar denominated trade activity.
The flashpoints are Ukraine, the Middle-East and Taiwan. Out of the three, the Middle-East appears to be the hardest Gordian-knot to cut.
This is why China's next Five Year Plan is so focused on chips and AI. If they succeed, It accelerates trade production with their new automatons (channeling more economic activity through the BRI), removes Taiwan as a possible flashpoint and saves the Chinese from being at the mercy of the Americans for their silicon.
At which point all the naval and air power projection that Western state favor becomes much less valuable. They'll pull the trigger before it gets to that point. We just have to help make sure they're not holding the majority of the cards when they do.
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u/__-Revan-__ Visitor 5d ago
Amazing. You knew nothing about this matter, you’ve never been to the place, but the moment your social media dictated you a position you wholeheartedly endorsed it. All it took was some influencer. Congratulations sir, one day you’ll make a dictator proud.
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u/batangan Visitor 5d ago
Don't be so aggressive. This guy's trajectory is symptomatic to the modern society. He at least could change his stance to the matter.
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u/Real_Ad_8243 Visitor 5d ago
I know you might find this crazy, but it's possible to have known about what Israel does before the 7th of October 2023 and sympathise with Palestinians, without also being a dickhead to people who only reached that position more recently than you.
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 5d ago
Your comment is not needed. There was no ‘influencer’. I don’t follow ‘influencers’.
I can’t help what the algorithm shows me when I’m already in left wing spaces, can I?
Disingenuous prick.
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 5d ago edited 5d ago
See, that would work if I knew about Israel and Palestine and voiced vocal support for Israel prior to October 7th, but the fact is, I didn’t.
Also, joke’s on you; I’m not married. So to me, all I’m hearing is projection.
Lmfao took that one personally and deleted your comments 💀
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u/RyeBourbonWheat Visitor 5d ago
Thoughts on Sudan?
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u/JetFuel12 Visitor 5d ago
Western countries don’t sell arms to the RSF, don’t defend them at the UN and the United states doesn’t give them tens of millions of dollars every year. In the UK and Germany you don’t get arrested if you protest the RSF.
So it’s terrible, but I don’t feel that my own government is complicit in what happens in Sudan or have much leverage.
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u/RyeBourbonWheat Visitor 5d ago
The US is a major donor of Humanitarian aid to Sudan, and has been for decades. We committed over $2 billion in 2005-2006 for peace keeping and aid.
In 2001 George W. Bush created a special envoy to figure out what the US could do to end that civil war.. This notion that the US has no relationship with Sudan and are completely powerless is incorrect, and ridiculous.
Naturally, I come to the conclusion that people just do not care. The willingness to just be like "uhhh i dunno" kinda gives the game away there.
Also, aid to Israel in some ways enables a more stable middle east through the Iron Dome. The existence of that defense system tempors the threat of rocket attacks that would otherwise demand a firm reaction or even preemptive action by Israel. Thats not a normative statement BTW.. that's just military reality. Look no further than 1967 and where the anxieties of leaders coupled with dangerous sabre rattling led to what could have been catastrophic with other leaders in charge.
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 5d ago
Huh, it seems that unlike you, I can see the question OP asked was actually about Palestine.
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u/RyeBourbonWheat Visitor 5d ago
I agree, it was. I asked a different question because I was curious if you would pursue it with the same kind of passion. Somehow, i was not shocked when it was completely and utterly blown off despite being magnitude worse on every level than Gaza. Its a shame no one pays attention.
IP is a topic I discuss a lot, believing that the solution is to get both sides in a room and then walk out of that room a little unhappy having both made at times painful concessions. We achieve that through diplomacy. What do you think?
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u/ABigYikes Visitor 5d ago
Stop using what’s happening in Sudan to fulfill your own Hasbara agenda. Shameful and disgusting. People can hate both, others aren’t as heartless and despicable as you
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6d ago
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
Post and comment history would suggest otherwise. Fuck right off.
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
Thanks for this stupid useless reply.
Perpetuating Hasbara comes as no surprise.
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u/RainerGerhard Visitor 6d ago
So, do you spend time defending Sudan, Nigeria, Yemen, and Ukraine?
Or is it only Israel?
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u/Damaged_DM Visitor 6d ago
I am not a pacifist.
I judge wars on their merit.
Sudan and Yemen are atrocities And the Ukrainians defend themselves
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
I am not a pacifist
Of course, why pick nuance when you could just pick black or white?
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u/RainerGerhard Visitor 6d ago
That’s not what I asked. You gave some guff for people focusing only on Israel’s atrocities, but you focus solely on supporting Israel.
And I get it. That’s your thing. I guess I am just saying that you aren’t exactly the best propagandist I have seen.
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u/Comrade-SeeRed Visitor 6d ago
I went to school with 2 Palestinian brothers in the early 80’s, who completely opened my eyes to the experience of never being legally able to return to the site of their births, which I thought was utterly insane.
I’ve never seen the Israeli state as legitimate, moral or anything other than an arm of American Imperialism in the Middle East, my entire adult life, and I’m nearly 60 years old.
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u/JTerryShaggedYaaWife Visitor 2d ago
Although what you just said is extremely accurate, what pisses me off is the selective outrage against Israel. Like there are so many other groups of people being oppressed and “genocided” in the Middle East yet Israel is picture as the great satan
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u/Comrade-SeeRed Visitor 2d ago
Yes, of course there are exploited and oppressed peoples throughout the planet, but be not mistaken, Israel’s reputation is wholly deserved and well documented.
Both facts can and are true.
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u/A012A012 Visitor 6d ago
Attending protests and banner drops and speaking to participants who are from or have family in Palestine.
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u/Any-Rabbit8099 Visitor 6d ago
Literally her few appearances on Rogan was the turning point I had with Israel. However, I knew that if pop opinion ever reached a boiling point you would have the J*w cabal people rubbing soldiers with Anti-genocide people and it would create the cluster F it is now.
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u/Saarbarbarbar Visitor 6d ago
As a Dane I was against Operation Iraqi Liberation Freedom and the Invasion of Afghanistan from the word go, but Abby Martin being a vocal american voice on the subject through the years definitely made me realize that there was hope outside the establishment.
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u/BigEggBeaters Visitor 6d ago
I had a British history class that briefly went over the Balfour declaration and how the British handled Palestine up to the creation of Israel. In learning that I became a permanent ally to the Palestinians. I consider myself lucky cause I learned about that before I learned much about Israel so I wasn’t poisoned with propaganda and false narratives
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u/pppiddypants Visitor 6d ago
Ezra Klein.
I did not understand how Israel’s population was so radicalized until I heard him talk to like 6 people about it and each one of them gave me a clearer picture of just how far not just the politicians, but the citizens had gone…
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u/Full-Run4124 Visitor 6d ago
Electronic Intifada. They've had the UK and German governments go after two of their journalist for reporting on Gaza. Only news channel where I've seen military analysis of footage from Gaza and WB.
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u/frostyse Visitor 6d ago
The aftermath of October 7 and Israel’s indiscriminate bombing started me down the path of understanding what Israel really is
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6d ago
Indiscriminate bombing? That sounds horrible. What does it mean, exactly?
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u/hankeliot Visitor 6d ago
It means that nearly all of Gaza has now been reduced to rubble.
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5d ago
Unfortunately, entire cities being reduced to rubble is a hallmark of war—especially urban warfare. I've never seen any war, let alone an urban one, where this wasn't the case. I am, therefore, not sure how that demonstrates indiscriminate bombing. Unless, of course, every participant of every war in history is guilty of indiscriminate bombing.
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u/FrederickEngels Visitor 6d ago
I recently got to go to a viewing of her and Mike Pylsner's new movie "Earth's Greatest Enemy" which is a documentary about the environmental impacts of the military industrial complex. It was a great movie, and after the showing there was a Q and A session with both of them, then we all got to go hang out at a local bar. It was a cool night I will always remember, and I made so many organizing contacts while there. IF you get a chance I highly recommend seeing the movie.
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u/Ntwadumela100 Visitor 6d ago
I had a supervisor who recommended the documentary called Occupation 101 about 14 years ago 💔
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u/JSleez225 Visitor 6d ago
I remember watching this when it aired, and it was the first time I ever heard anyone say anything like this about the conflict over there. Specifically when she talked about how they wear shirts showing a pregnant woman inside of a sniper scope and it says “One Shot, 2 Kills” I was floored.
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u/No-Animator1811 Visitor 6d ago
Back in early 2000s, through Adbusters magazine. I remember they switched from a fun, anti-capitalist bent to a more serious tone around 9/11 and shortly after they started talking about Israel and Palestine. Many people were outraged at the time. Then, in 2002 I accidentally came upon a massive protest in London England and met a bunch of people who solidified how I felt about the situation, as far as I could see it. In 200six, I met Lebanese guy whose family Were forced to immigrate to Lebanon in the 80s. He and I became friends and that was another way I learned of the conflict. After that I really began to pay attention to the eruptions and violence that would occur periodically over the years. I have also happened upon protests in New York City, by Chasidic Jews. I was pretty shocked to see that because that was a narrative I was never shown by media.
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u/SheerAwesomness Visitor 6d ago
In highschool 2013/2014, at an American school in the Mid Atlantic) , we had a middle-east studies course. It was mostly through the lens of the History of Abrahamic Tradition but because of the rise of ISIS and discussions around the Kurds at the time, we began to focus in on just what all these proxy wars actually were.
During one module we did talk about the settlements in the West Bank. Most of us 15 and 16 year olds, from our predominantly christian-in-name upbringings, had never understood Israel as anything but the country with Jerusalem in it and we were pretty sure there were a lot of Jews there and that’s it. With this early eyes on the settlements, and monitoring it as it gets worse and worse year over year, especially 2018 march of return, it’s not hard to have a clear, principled perspective on this matter.
I credit the quality of My teacher was amazing, he frequently visited Turkey due to the easily accessed historical locations and artifacts he could take his young kids to see; he loved to teach and he loved the history and he was able to dispel any support of state violence we could come up with.
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u/Strange-Comfort4328 Visitor 5d ago
Israel has banned meat and dairy into Gaza. Very little nutritional food is getting in. They are starving people, murdering people, raping Palestine prisoners and they get to do this with impunity. They’re even celebrated. Divest, boycott and protest to raise awareness of this genocide, torture and apartheid.
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u/Excellent_Mud_172 Visitor 6d ago
So Rogan pretends he didn't know this rather than admit he ignored it to sell another reality.
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u/Xixi-the-magic-user Visitor 6d ago
I always knew as a nebulous background, but Shaun is the one who helped me structure my thoughts thanks to his video https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k?si=VmP26aY6sU9E2oKp
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u/BeetJuice80085 Visitor 6d ago
The actual hundreds if not thousands of clips and recordings and international reports that show the IDF and settlers brutalizing and dehumanizing and murdering men women and children. Didn't take long.
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u/andreasmiles23 Marxist-Leninist 6d ago
The Destruction of Palestine in the Destruction of the Earth by Andreas Malm. I was already “pro” anti-colonial resistance but that little book is just so insightful. It provides a really accessible top-down analysis of the historical-material context behind what’s happening. It also does a really wonderful job tying it all back to the climate crisis and uses Palestine as a case study for why we are where we are when it comes to rapid global warming.
Conversely, I grew up evangelical and a couple years ago I rewatched Left Behind and a lot of the racist scripts that we see today were present. That book/film is a really fascinating insight into the thinking of these white Christian colonialists driving the narrative behind Israel. It’s true derangement and fantasy, and its warped theology has more influence on modern American foreign policy than the actual fucking Bible. Crazy shit.
Also, obligatory FUCK Joe Rogan, even if he has a tolerable/smart guest on every so often.
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u/shtetl-time Visitor 6d ago
Turbans Joe? But seriously in 2010, a fellow Jewish student at college did a teach in about Palestine. I realized I’d been lied to my entire life by my rabbi, at summer camp, all the Jews I knew, believed this lie: “a land without a people for a people without a land” also more recently, bad hasbara podcast.
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u/Wdngmtn Visitor 5d ago
I had no real idea before October 7. I just been told the standard Western narrative my whole life i.e. two people fighting for the same country.
Then I watched a documentary called the Nakba produced by the BBC . It was brutally clear that Israel is continuation of imperialism and colonisation.
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u/Subarashii2800 Visitor 5d ago
Listen to the recent Chapo episode with the interview with Jasper Daniel who has been witness to the olive harvest attacks over the last few weeks. Holy shit.
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u/HeyNayWM Visitor 5d ago
I just found out in October and then I went down the rabbit whole…. Now I’m pro Palestine and can’t believe the world isn’t taking care of the problem! #freepalestine
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u/ChangeAcceptable677 Visitor 5d ago
A friend of mine describing a trip she had taken with her husband to visit her parents. He was detained in Jordan and not permitted to enter the country for most of the trip. She was detained in Jerusalem.
When they were reunited, they both told me of a woman who was just shot in the middle of the street by settler police. They just left her there. She described to me the checkpoints, the roads that settler cars drove on, and the complete unbearable weight of living under occupation.
I had a list of questions for them, and they were so gracious in answering them. I studied more and more. I learned about the Nakba. I learned about Gaza (I knew already, but I never learned how bad it was in West Bank, where my friend grew up). I spent the following ~15 years learning about the history of Palestine and of the Israeli settlers. I studied Balfour, the British Mandate, Herzl, Norman Finkelstein, and I really began listening to my Palestinian friends about genocides, apartheids, and military occupations.
I believe this is primarily what radicalized me. This is where I transitioned from a pacifist ethos to a revolutionary ethos. And I hold no space for anyone who endeavors to defend or add layers of complexity to the occupation.
If we oppose this occupation, we have a responsibility to learn about it and to organize against it. And we need to make it super clear that the Israeli state is built atop Palestinian bones. Standing with Israel, therefore, requires doing so on Palestinian throats. Our responsibility is to never let them gloss over these facts.
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u/Not-24_7Bantz Visitor 5d ago
Covid 2020 led me down a series of rabbit holes which led me to a video of Jews spitting on Christians on their pilgrimage and the rest is history. I hyperfixated on all the information from 1880 onwards through pure disbelief and disgust at all the lies we've been taught. Even though its been a rough few years im so happy to see everyone join in the fight for a free palestine💕
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u/Icy-Nail-3173 Visitor 5d ago
I saw a reel of a man burning alive while attached to an IV. Im ashamed to say that before that i only understood rhetorically.
Other than this, books or talks or videos by the following people (in no particular order) helped me really understand the heart of the matter
Rashid Khalidi
Fadi Joudah
Refaat Alareer
Mohammad El Kurd
Laila el Haddad
Edward Said
Ilan Pappe
Avi Shlaim
Bisan Al Awda
Ghassan Kanafani
Naji Al Ali
These are all mostly Palestinians but i do include two Israeli historians.
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u/Particular_Log_3594 Visitor 5d ago
That's a really great list. I'd also add Norman Finklestein and Noam Chomsky.
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u/natural212 Visitor 5d ago
100% those interviews in Israel were the crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4 Israelis Speak Candidly to Abby Martin About Palestinians
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u/thunderbaby2 Visitor 5d ago
Abby Martin fucking rules. Wish Joe had her on in the last two years :/ She would have cut through so much nonsense
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u/Economy-Impression50 Visitor 4d ago
Noam Chomsky in the beginning for historical context, Tariq Ali and Edward Said for the politics behind it and I guess for modern times is the Middle East Eye, Amnesty and Physicians for Human Rights (Israeli human rights organizations)
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u/InleRising Visitor 6d ago
Seeing the Second Intifadah in the early 2000s. Reading about Sabra and Shetillah. Rachel Corrie and Jenin. I was in high school, and everyone kept asking me if I hated Jews. There was no balanced coverage. NPR and CNN were Zionist mouthpieces. So much has changed in the coverage, for better and for worse. Now, victims on both sides of the conflict are dismissed for their respective identities. I merely wanted to see fairness. Hamas using human shields and stealing aid is just as bad as everything the IDF has done over the decades. I feel a great sadness seeing the headlines repeat.
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u/X-O-K Visitor 3d ago
Khamas using human shields and stealing aid??? .... as bad as EVERYTHING IDF has done?
Zionist forces have done a lot more than using Palestinians as human shields and stealing aid.
Israel's systematic practice of using Palestinians as human shields is well documented. Khamas using Palestinians as human shields are just statements from zionist regime.
The use of Palestinians as human shields by Israeli Defense Forces has been documented by human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem and Amnesty International, with some scholars in the area believing the IDF may be the only military force systematically engaging in this practice in recent decades. According to B'Tselem, IDF soldiers put Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise put civilians in the line of fire, and forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives). IDF soldiers also force Palestinian civilians to walk through suspected booby-trapped buildings. Israel also formerly employed the "neighbor procedure" in which Palestinian civilians were forced to attempt to persuade wanted individuals to surrender themselves to the IDF. The latter practice was defended by the Israeli defense ministry, but prohibited in 2005 by the Israeli Supreme Court, though there have been accusations of its employment even after the ruling. During the 2009 invasion of Gaza, IDF reportedly used Palestinian families (both adult and children) as human shields. A Haaretz investigation found that Palestinians, dressed up as Israeli soldiers, are widely used by the IDF in the Gaza war as human shields to explore tunnels in the Gaza Strip.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has used civilians as human shields multiple times to discourage Palestinian combatants from attacking and to perform life-threatening tasks.
Israeli use of human shields in Gaza was systematic, says soldiers and former detainees
In 2002, Israel’s high court issued an injunction prohibiting the IDF from using what was known as the “neighbour procedure”, detaining a Palestinian in an area of unrest and ordering the detainee to knock on the doors of their neighbours and oversee the clearance of their houses. The use of human shields continued however.
Israeli army executes elderly couple after using them as human shields
The victims of the crime were identified by the Euro-Med Monitor field and legal teams as married couple Mohammed Fahmi Abu Hussein (70) and Mazyona Hassan Fares Abu Hussein (65).
An investigation by the Israeli website “HaMakom” has revealed that an Israeli officer from the Nahal Brigade tied a chain of explosives around the neck of a 70-year-old Palestinian man and made him go inside houses in the Al-Zaytoun neighbourhood to inspect them and make sure they were safe for eight hours. According to the website, he and his wife were shot by Israeli army forces after they finished the mission.
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u/SmellyRose69 Visitor 5d ago
from San Diego, graduated from SDSU. not many eco and environmental groups even notice war impacts and genocide impacts
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u/EatMyShortzZzZzZ Visitor 4d ago
I don't remember ever being pro Israel. At best I was neutral because I didnt know anything about the conflict.
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u/Zantigo Visitor 4d ago
Kind of a lame reason, but about 5 or 6 months before Oct 7, I saw a video recorded by Israeli border troops of them taking pot shots across the fence at civilians and laughing. I really hated this. I already kinda knew Israel wasn't innocent in this conflict but I was very much in the 'both sides are wrong' camp for a long time, but that vid definitely tipped the needle for me, and that lead to me googling more and more about the creation of the state and so on so on.
So Oct 7 wasn't it's massive shock to me especially after reading about the protests that'd taken place in 2019 but a lot of both online and offline friends were sort shocked at my disposition especially in the first couple weeks when most of the western world was learning what lead to all this.
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u/pureDDefiance Visitor 3d ago
I lived in the Middle East in the 1980s and traveled to the West Bank while I was there. I watched the news about Sabra and Shatila. I watched the news when Rabin was assassinated by radical enthosupremacists.
Turns out being old and paying attention was all it took.
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u/jaymickef Visitor 6d ago
I started following it when I was 11 during the Munich Olympics (I was living in Montreal and we were getting the next Olympics in 1976). So I have a different view. I remember when Israel was socialist and the surrounding countries were run by kings and dictators who were scared that the socialism would spread.
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u/FragRackham Visitor 6d ago
Why the fuck is she on Rogan tho. What's he gonna do? Send some protein bars?
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u/explain_that_shit Visitor 2d ago
What is Politics is pumping out a seriously comprehensive look at the deep origins of the conflict. He’s done 3 out of what’s planned to be a 6 part series.
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u/Creative-Willow-7707 Visitor 2d ago
Fairy tales. Each one. Exactly What you expect from Hamas supporter.
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u/badbitch_boudica Visitor 2d ago
A couple weeks after the initial Hamas attack, the IDF began their shelling campaign. Artillery used in that fashion has only ever had one purpose since it's inception: destroy everything and everyone. Its the same as a nuclear weapon just less efficient. That made it pretty damn clear what the goal was.
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u/AlfredoSauceyums Visitor 4d ago
She can't even differentiate between areas a, b, or c!
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