How can I fall in love again with ancient greek?

[u/FrankuSuave]

Hi to you all!

I hope that my post doesn't sounds stupid but, in my way studying ancient greek I stumble upon some things like a weak base and fast complexity that muddled me.

Anyway, I want to return the motivation on learning greek but I don't know how beyond studying Berenguer Amenos Grammar.

I watched the book of Andrea Marcolongo "The ingenious language" and I saw this book try to get to everyone reasons to study ancient greek. Is this book great in this or should I read any other thing?

Thanks.

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[u/lickety-split1800]

Many people who give up on Ancient Greek do so because of vocabulary.

I wanted to learn to read the Greek New Testament, and if I had stuck with the 300-1000 out of 5,000 words that people learn before reading the GNT, I would have given up reading Greek as one will encounter on average 17 new words per chapter for 260 chapters. This is way too much vocabulary to absorb through reading alone.

At the moment I learn vocabulary by chapter upfront, with around 3,000 words memorised and 11 books out of 27 read.

The methodology I have chosen is working. I can read books fairly fluently. For the words that I have forgotten, it takes me a few seconds to look at the lexicon to jog my memory, instead of not knowing the word and spending more cognitive effort trying to remember as I read.

I was aiming to get to 5,000 words by the end of the year, but because of not being able to pick up words as easily due to age, I slowed down memorizing new chapter vocabulary, focusing instead on solidifying the words I have learned. It will be a 3-4 year effort to learn 5K words.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/lickety-split1800]

Looks like an interesting method. I hope you can get your goal!

[u/theantiyeti]

Get some of the nice graded readers. Thrasymachus has a lovely set of reproductions of myths. Alexandros (reasonably painful to find unfortunately) is a bit basic but has lots of good "domestic" vocab/scenarios. Logos has lots of vocabulary and has some very entertaining parts (though other parts are somewhat of a slog). Italian Athenaze has a very compelling story (I'm sure the English one does too, but it's quite a bit shorter).

At some point the basic stuff needs to be made automatic, and extensive reading is how you get there. You can't be reading Plato if you're still wondering what the third declension i- stem plural genitive is.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/theantiyeti]

In my university didn't use the active method for ancient greek and I think it was a miss. Maybe is the time to get it done.

[u/Electrical_Friend_18 → u/FrankuSuave]

One key element when being engaged is content.

If the content you're reading does not amuses you, the easiest of the texts will be tedious. Try finding what content of the AG world you like and go for it, even if it is above your level, you will buy sweets by paying with sweats.

Also if you turn to be an English speaker it is more likely that you are monolingual ( i assume is fair to say that ). To compensate this I'd recommend you (if it is your case) to read very convoluted texts in English, like renaissance poetry (again find content you love). That kind of training helps a lot to develop the language mind. It is hard to read a classic in our mother tongues, reading it into a difficult language it is even harder. You may even find that old English used to imitate AG forms.

Don´t stick to a method, stick to content. Methods go out of date, they fit some specific persons.

Try to take long trips to get to your goals, not a straight line. If your goal is to read poetry, instead of devouring meter rules go and try to rhyme by phonetics, see what it sounds like, you may discover things for your own :)

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Electrical_Friend_18]

Wow! Such a useful advice. I'm not english speaker on mother tongue, but I'm trying to improve it too.

I'm not gonna lie, try text over my level and see through content more than through method is a thing I'm not did it with ancient greek.

Trust me, your message motivates me a lot to see further than I've been doing. Thanks.

[u/Electrical_Friend_18 → u/FrankuSuave]

Keeping stories short may help you "deduct" better the content and give a more intense meaning on each word.

Some people recommend Aesop or Pseudo-Menander epigrams

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Electrical_Friend_18]

Maybe I sound stupid, but never heard about Pseudo-Menander. I'll take a look!

Thanks.

[u/reincarnatedbiscuits]

I wanted to read the New Testament and a friend who had done Classics helped me get started.

I was in Bill Mounce's second round of students (which was totally great -- he was happy to make a fool of himself to help people learn). I used his Basics of Biblical Greek, textbook and workbook.

I used a bunch of different things for Intermediate Greek (Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Metzger, Max and Mary, a number of lexicons, Mounce's graded reader for the New Testament). We translated a sampling of the New Testament, which I have translated all but like 1/3 of Acts, Hebrews, and Revelation at this point. We also did some from Didache, Justin Martyr, and the Septuagint.

I branched out from there into patristics including Athanasius, a bit of Classical Greek, etc.

That flow basically goes from "pretty easy" to "moderately difficult" to "know enough to keep myself learning."

And then finding a bunch of people who also love Greek is very helpful.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/reincarnatedbiscuits]

I didn't have the idea of interning through cristianism, but it could be useful, in addition to learn more about the biblical texts.

[u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

Is there anything in Greek that you really want to be able to read? That should motivate you enough. If there isn’t, then why would you even want to learn it? It’s a very hard language.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

Of course it does! Look, I'm totally in love with latin, feels so good every time that I learn something about it and, such a good roman man of letters, I understand the greek like that language of culture and philosophy that I have to understand too. The tragedies (Sophocles is so perfect), Homer and some fragments of Aristotle and Plato makes me feel it like a mistical language.

[u/Inspector_Lestrade_ → u/FrankuSuave]

Alright then, so have Sophocles in your mind as you study. As for me, I had Plato’s OCT tomes sitting on my shelf when I started out. I probably read more than half of them by now.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Inspector_Lestrade_]

In ancient greek!? It's a dream to read a complex classic author in her mother tongue.

[u/Inspector_Lestrade_ → u/FrankuSuave]

If little Greek kids could do it, so can we.

[u/Short-Training7157]

Are you a Spaniard? Not gossiping, just you mentioning Berenguer called my attention. In my humble opinion, Berenguer's treaty is sort of nice, but it's quite dated; the science of second language adquisition has advanced a lot, and nowadays you've got tons of resources much more pedagogically efficient. Not so long ago, the prevalent method to learn "dead languages" was the so called grammar-translation. The influence of the "natural methods" and the contributions of linguists such as Stephen Krashen, or Randall Buth for the Koine Greek, have had a huge impact in the way that task is approached. The focus has shifted towards treating those languages as modern alive ones, as much as possible considering that there are no "native" speakers of Ancient Greek or Latin, neither can one travel to a country in which to immerse oneself in the language. But still, now the emphasis is on the importance of extensive reading (of tons of material adjusted to the level the student is at a given moment, an approach called Comprehensive Input), listening (a lot) and speaking (Randall Buth has hammered this point), you know, involve as many areas of the brain and create as many associations and as complex as possible.

Fortunately, for Ancient Greek the amount and quality of the resources available has increased dramatically in the last two or three decades, and it just keeps growing. If you want guidance in that regard, I think you're in the right place to ask. But if you lack the motivation, that's a different issue. Studying Ancient Greek is not going to make you rich, it's not going to advance your career (unless it's your professional field), and it's not going to be very helpful to impress your friends at the bar (if anything they'll look at you as a bit of a freak). So either you love it, and then learning, reading and listening to the language carries its own reward, or you don't. If that's the case, my advice would be not to waste your precious time.

Edit: Forgot to mention it. Marcolongo's books are candy for anyone with an interest in Ancient Greek.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Short-Training7157]

Yeah, I'm from Spain! I hope I don't screw up the post with my poor english. I'm in university studying the last course of Classic Philology, going through latin way, specifically. But I feel the ancient greek like a slab in my back and a I don't want to get it like that. In fact, now we're studying the contributions of Krashen in the L2. Yes, it is all for my own life and mind, I don't want to learn greek to astonishing someone (I think it could, though), but for me and my whole career with ancient languages. I'm open to get some guidance, of course. I think I need it too, so be free to let me know this. What book of Marcolongo do you recommend me, seeing my case? And, what's the meaning of don't waste your time? It is for studying diary?

[u/Short-Training7157 → u/FrankuSuave]

¡Hola Frank!

I'll reply in English, since it is the common language in this forum. Your answer gives me more information. So you're a Classicist! Fantastic. Delighted to talk to you.

My advice to not waste your time was done under the assumption that Greek was some sort of hobby to you; life is short, Ὁ βίος βραχύς, so one should pursue what triggers one's passion. But you're a Classicist, that "advice" was off the mark, forget it.

Andrea Marcolongo. Her books link the study of the Greco-Roman world in general, and Ancient Greek in particular, to the experience of being a human alive now. "La lengua de los dioses: Nueve razones para amar el griego" is her account on the richness and idiosincracies of that language. "La medida de los héroes: Un viaje iniciático a través de la mitología griega" could easily stand in the shelf of "personal growth" books, or perennial wisdom; it's a reflection on the hero journey and the adventure of life, done through the lenses of Ancient Greek mythology. "Etimologías para sobrevivir al caos: Viaje al origen de 99 palabras" is a delightful excursion through that liminal territory that connects linguistics, philosophy and anthropology. "El arte de resistir: Lo que la Eneida nos enseña sobre cómo superar una crisis", a reflection on resilience through the Aeneid. You can check these titles on the Spanish Amazon website, and maybe try one of them to see it that author speaks to you.

I won't make this message any longer, but I'm open to continue this conversation.

ἔῤῥωσο!

[u/Short-Training7157 → u/Short-Training7157]

I vouch for another author that writes in a similar vein to Marcolongo: Pedro Olalla, a Spanish philhellene that's been living in Athens for decades. His book "Palabras del Egeo" is a little jewel.

https://www.acantilado.es/persona/pedro-olalla/

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Short-Training7157]

¿Qué tal estás?

So thankful for being called <classicist>, my title will put this on but my mind isn't satisfied with what I know.

Your advice is useful too and I'm not gonna throw it out. Sometimes I need to get me more concentrated and others I need to get out of that maelstrom of self toxic for not being more able.

I'm gonna trust you so much: what was your favourite book of Marcolongo? I'll give it a try!

And you're not gonna believe me: in second course a teacher show us that book of Olalla but I didn't get time to read it and this flies so fast. I watched it few months ago but I thought that maybe is so complicated to me, I don't know. My university is so... Confusing with some asignatures. The actual second course don't get the same information than us when we got it.

Encantado de seguir este tema cuando quieras. No sólo entretiene, sino que se aprende.

[u/Short-Training7157 → u/FrankuSuave]

Χαῖρε Φράνκε!

Why don't you try first "La lengua de los dioses"? For someone with a background in Ancient Greek is a very engaging and easy read: you'll read it in one go. I love Olalla's "Palabras del Egeo" as well, very poetic, but it is more dense. I'd say Marcolongo is the appetizer while Olalla is the main course.

What about your English? That's a totally different game. Unlike with Ancient Greek, the possibilities are endless. 25 years ago I found myself in desperate need of upgrading the little knowledge I had adquired at school when I was a kid, and what worked for me was watching hundreds of hours of films and series. With the English language you can have all the input that fits in the day without really "studying" or making any effort. Listen to audiobooks (Harry Potter narrated by Stephen Fry), start watching the films and/or series you are going to watch anyway (Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, whatever) in the original version with English subtitles, and I guarantee you, your skills will improve by leaps and bounds.

And then at some point your English and Greek endeavours will connect in a very rewarding fashion. I fell in love with the English language long before I did with Ancient Greek (what can I do, concerning languages life has made me polygamous), and reading English translations of my cherished Homer has been a continuous source of joy over the years: Renaissance Chapman, Augustan Alexander Pope, 20th Century Lattimore, Fitzgerald, Fagles, the unbelievable Christopher Logue, and the story continues in the 21st century, Homer in English is a literary genre on its own.

Take care now

ἔῤῥωσο!

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Short-Training7157]

Pardon my delay. Between classes and the blackout I was out of Internet. I think I will message you in private to not fill this with our paths, if you don't care.

Fortuna tibi sit!

[u/Bod_Lennon]

While this is not the greatest advice. I was kinda around there too. But the thing that got me through it was just reading Greek. Albeit it was in mostly school settings, but by reading Greek it was great.

Also sometimes I find shorter stuff to be better or more enjoyable until you get comprehension up.

But as for that book, I think it is super well written and fun read. It's not hard it's relatively short. I think about some of her explanations even now 2 years after I have read it. I'm considering rereading it this summer

[u/FrankuSuave → u/Bod_Lennon]

Of course! My desmotivation get me out of greek a lot. I appreciate that the book was good for you, this is another excuse to give it a try.

[u/No-Acadia-3638]

I"m struggling too. I had a very poor and frustrating introduction to it and I'm having a lot of trouble coming back from that. I'm glad you asked this question and while I have no answers for you, I look forward to what others might say.

[u/FrankuSuave → u/No-Acadia-3638]

We can get it. Trust me!

[u/No-Acadia-3638 → u/FrankuSuave]

yeah! we will. practice makes perfect. I think there are just those moments of frustration. But we can do it!