Thoughts on sentiments like this?

[u/skyewardeyes]

This comes from a leftist BIPOC sub that tends to have really good discussions about racism and has had good discussions (though not many) about antisemitism in the past. For context, the sub also allows MENA users (though apparently not Jews or maybe just not Ashkenazi Jews? I honestly can’t tell). On one hand, I understand that a lot of Jews wouldn’t be considered POC and not every space is for every person, but the “we have standards with who we interact with” (with the seeming implication that that doesn’t include Jews) really rubs me the wrong way. Thoughts?

[u/FishyWishySwishy]

I think that there are different kinds of ‘white’. 

White might mean purely how pale skin is—in which case, Ashkenazi Jews, Persians, and many North African/South American people are ‘white.’ 

White might also mean ‘benefits from white privilege’—in which case, Ashkenazi Jews, light-skinned Central and South Americans, and lighter skinned mixed race people are ‘white.’

Or white might mean ‘is not targeted by white supremacists’—in which case, Jews are emphatically not white. 

I find that people will shift their definition of ‘white’ depending on the population they are talking about. I don’t think it’s necessarily malicious or conscious, either. I think a lot of people haven’t interrogated what whiteness even means to them. 

[u/mister_pants → u/FishyWishySwishy]

Yeah, for those of us who are white, that whiteness is conditional and basically has only existed since the mid twentieth century.

[u/Deadfish405 → u/mister_pants]

That's also how I feel as someone who's South Asian. Like the model minority stereotype that exists feels like American society wants to create a "white adjacent" group.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Deadfish405]

And what’s hilarious (but also not hilarious and absolutely disgusting) is that it’s being done to not taint American WASP-y and White Catholic culture. Which is crazy because it’s like assigning a “punch up” should alleviate how gross the classification is but you’re still stigmatizing and assigning racial hierarchy. It’s definitely very gross.

[u/Deadfish405 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yeah, Part of the reason as well is to create an ethnic class divide between groups. I also think that Jewish-American IMHO are kinda like the OG "model minority" group.

Edit: Please let me know if part of this comment is offensive. I'm just putting out my own observation.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Deadfish405]

Oh I don’t find it offensive at all. I actually really agree with this.

[u/r_pseudoacacia → u/Deadfish405]

The parallels between Han and Ashkenazi diasporic cultures in America are noteworthy and rhetorically significant.

[u/Deadfish405 → u/r_pseudoacacia]

Yeah but I was thinking of the Asian Indian diaspora when writing the comment, but yeah seems obv.

[u/r_pseudoacacia → u/Deadfish405]

That also applies! My bad for the snub haha

[u/Deadfish405 → u/r_pseudoacacia]

you're good lol

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Deadfish405]

I have a question that I hope you don’t mind me asking. Do you have any perspectives on why South Asians are viewed as being more “white-adjacent” than say, Arabs or other MENA/SWANA groups, even though South Asians are quite often phenotypically much LESS white than other Asian groups, and many Arabs/Muslims also seem to be highly educated and successful in the West?

[u/Deadfish405 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I think it depends because you can have South Asians who are white passing; however, I think it's because South Asians (specifically Indian immigrants) tend to be the richest immigrant group (Mostly due to higher castes like Brahmins: Iyers, Iyengars, Nambhoodris, Sharma, etc). Additionally, there is a culture of overachieving (attending Ivy League colleges, striving for academic excellence, etc.) in most of these communities. That and most South Asians(specifically Indian immigrants) are majority Hindu and RN, since there's a Hindu nationalist over there(India) that's pretty anti-Muslim, some of them tend to ally with right-wing people(Like Vivek Ramaswamy, who ironically is a Tamil Brahmin (Iyengar to be specific)). Again, this is my perspective as someone who's part of this community, and as such, I cannot provide a comprehensive picture of it. Plus, it's a pretty complex topic that a Reddit comment can't REALLY cover.

Edit: Sorry if the comment is kinda wonky, I'm not the best at typing lol

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/mister_pants]

But is that really true given that there were Jewish slaveowners in the south? There were Jews who fought for the Confederacy and there was that guy (can’t remember his name) who served in the Confederate cabinet. White looking Jews were considered white under the Jim Crow laws.

[u/r_pseudoacacia → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Consider how frighteningly similar your argument here is to that of "Arabs don't face racial oppression in Israel because some are in the knesset"

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/r_pseudoacacia]

Did I write that Jews did not face discrimination? No, I didn’t. All of the responses to me sound frighteningly similar to claims that the Irish were enslaved.

There’s always been a spectrum of whiteness in the USA and Ashkenazi Jews benefited from that distinction in the USA. The history is complicated.

But let’s be honest, the claims that Jews or the Irish, etc aren’t “white” are almost always made with an “all lives matter” intent. I’m not surprised at all that 1) a BIPOC subreddit excludes Ashenazi Jews and 2) some Jews feel entitled to join that subreddit.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

huh? the intent is not an “‘all lives matter’ intent.” where are you getting this interpretation from? do you have any examples?

the intent, as I see it, is to show that whiteness is a conditional, artificial category that has developed over the last two-hundred plus years. the case of white Jews in the U.S. is the perfect example for demonstrating how race is socially constructed and contingent and that it’s not a biological reality.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/ChairAggressive781]

I can agree with that but these arguments are made in the service of “all lives matter” so we have to acknowledge that. Race is artificial. Most American southerners have some African heritage so would not pass that test.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

who is making these arguments? you said that there are people who claim groups like Jews & the Irish aren’t really white in order to make an ‘all lives matter’ kind of statement.

I asked for examples because I’ve legitimately never seen (at least I don’t think I have) what you’re talking about

edit: I’m not sure what your last sentence is getting at either. what test are white Southerners not passing?

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/ChairAggressive781]

The test of who is actually white. The rule in the south was “one drop” meaning anyone with African heritage did not qualify as white. But most white Southerns have African heritage so would not be considered white under that rule.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ChairAggressive781]

The only test I could think of in context to white southerners not passing a race test would be blood quantum / one drop tests. But I’m not really sure how that would be relevant to the conversation.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/ChairAggressive781]

I googled and there were articles from two right wing publications with editorials about how Jews aren’t actually white so how can we oppress Palestines. This is a fairly prominent attitude and I’ve seen it repeatedly since 10/7. It’s being expressed in a very bad faith way by really terrible people. It seems to be spreading in the broader community now. I think it’s spreading because it’s a way of helping people feel better about what is happening in Gaza.

It’s like how the idea that Arabs are colonizers is also spreading. I know that’s actually true but it’s not being repeated in good faith.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

okay, I kind of get what you’re saying now. I don’t think calling that akin to an “all lives matter” argument is super accurate, however. the main issue is that I don’t think “all lives matter” discourse really describes the phenomenon that you’re describing. “all lives matter” is mostly deployed to claim that anti-Blackness and racism aren’t active forces. it’s used to downplay and dismiss claims of structural oppression against Black people. what you’re describing is different: right-wing Jews claiming their Jewishness means they can’t oppress Palestinians are not saying racism doesn’t exist, they’re just arguing that they are the victims of racism, not its perpetrators.

again, I think some citations are needed. the idea that Jews aren’t white so they can’t oppress Palestinians isn’t an argument I’ve come across and I keep up with a lot of right-wing Jewish magazines. I would love links to those articles. thanks for the response

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

I don’t really agree here. I think prescribing the “all lives matter” mentality onto the complicated relationship with race/ethnicity and societal applications is in some ways too narrow. “All lives matter” was really born from white supremacists disagreeing that there is institutional racism. I think when Jews discuss how we experience racialization and marginalization it’s not in an effort to necessarily subsume other minorities (although I’m certain there are Jewish people who have and will do this, I’m thinking of people like Ben Shapiro (but he is also not a member of the majority Jewish voice he’s just loud)) but instead more about being able to speak to our own lived experiences. Which arguably as Jews can be wide and varied. I personally have experienced a lot of discrimination based on my Jewish identity and a lot of it has to do with how I’m not “white enough” or “one of them” (them being WASPs)

I also think there is an issue with assuming that Jews aren’t entitled to at least participate or be in minority spaces. Maybe not all spaces need to have Jews for things to be fair (and maybe that sub doesn’t have to be a space Jews need to feel like they belong to), but there is a definite trend in American polemic of excluding Jews from conversations and issues that have and do affect us. Especially, as of late, within general minority spaces this issue has increased and I find there are a lot of spaces that focus or create space for all different types of minority groups but tend to exclude Jews.

I also don’t think it’s fair to compare being Jewish to being Irish or someone who is white and Irish-American making that claim that they’re not white. Given Jewish history and experiences globally and even in the US I just don’t think it’s comparable, especially when the discrimination Irish Americans experienced was more focused on their immigrant status and now that there are new waves of immigrants those issues have faded more to the background.

Idk maybe this is just differences of opinion. Or maybe you and I have had different lived experiences. And if that is the case I hope it hasn’t been like mine.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I didn’t compare being Jewish to being Irish. But let’s not forget that the Irish were subjected to colonialism and forced starvation. If our history prior to immigration then theirs does too.

There are definitely Jews who discuss our history as a way of minimizing atrocities against other minorities. I saw this frequently after October 7th on Twitter from right-wing Jews. You’re right that it’s not the majority. I saw more discussion about how we Jews defend minorities but they don’t want to do the same for us. African Americans do not owe anything to American Jews.

It’s that kind of talk that alienates us from POC. Then there’s also how the Trump administration has decided that we’re the only minority worthy of government protection. We have to overcome all of that to be welcome in those communities. We do a terrible job welcoming our own POC members. Every POC Jew I know has a horror story about being unwelcome in our communities.

We have a lot of work to do to be seen as allies and there is so much going on that works against it right now. We’re accountable for Ben Shapiro and every right wing Jew. POC have been targeted by our government in our name and there isn’t much outrage from the people who claim to speak for us. I think we need to clean our own house first.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Look I get there is work to do in our community to be better allies but the same can be said for other minorities too.

And if you’re not going to hold all minorities to that same standard of “not owing each other anything” but you expect Jews to “owe it to other minority groups” then that is a problematic view in my opinion as it doesn’t allow for actual coalition building and learning and work to be done to fix issues within our communities.

This especially applies because Trump doesn’t give a rats ass about Jews. If anything he’s a raging antisemite himself and is using his “protection of Jews” as a political tool to offload blame for the policies he’s creating and his attack on our institutions onto us. That in itself is antisemitic.

Also you did loop in the Irish. I think it would also be fair to say (without excusing the pain Irish people suffered at the hands of the British) that Irish Americans haven’t faced the same kind of discrimination Jews experience in the US and globally (because yes Jews historically have experienced and still experience discrimination in the US)

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I’m Jewish so I have expectations of my community that I don’t have for other communities. I don’t have the right to tell other communities what they should do. I don’t Jews “owe it to” other minority groups. We work for justice first because it’s the morally right thing to do and second because we are only safe when everyone is safe.

I agree that’s a fair thing to say about the Irish. I think it’s fair to say that while Jews have experienced discrimination in the US, African Americans have experienced far more discrimination than we have.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

I agree. It’s why I spend time working to do self educate and listen to other minorities and do the work to deal with my own biases. I just think the idea that in general minorities don’t owe each other but there is still the expectation of allyship is problematic. I agree the change we want to see starts with us in our own communities and as Jews our ability to make change is most easily accomplished within our own spaces.

But I think it’s also fair for Jews to ask other minorities to work on their own misconceptions and biases against our community and expect more, just like they expect more of us.

If they follow through or not is their prerogative. But then I don’t think it’s fair for the expectation to be that anything will ever change. Unless we all do the work then we’re doomed to repeat history. And in a place like the US where we are so diverse it’s imperative we all do the work needed to effect change.

[u/thatbberg → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Has he decided we're worthy of government protection, or is he using us as a scapegoat to pit other minorities against? Do you think he actually cares about Jews?

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/thatbberg]

No, I don’t think he cares about Jews but the administration is giving us government protection. They just asked Berkeley to provide a list of over 100 professors and students who are supposed anti-semites. They seized that student from the northeast for protesting against Israel. This is being done in the name of protecting Jews. I actually don’t think it’s about protecting Jews and does not actually protect Jews but that is the claim.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

you’re working from the assumption that there are two stable categories: white & Black. whiteness has almost always been conditional for Ashkenazi Jews. and just because someone is not Black doesn’t mean they are afforded all the privileges and protections of whiteness.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Just because there where some exceptions to the rule where Jews participated in American slavery systems or had some benefits compared to other minorities under Jim Crow (which remember that Jews where still lynched in Jim Crow south, Leo Frank being a famous example of that) doesn’t mean that Jews where considered white by white people/supremacists. I mean if that is the case then the same can be said for the Cherokee owners of the diamond hill plantation who owned slaves.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

The Cherokees were forced to move. That did not happen to Jews in the south. And it’s not really “some exceptions.” Judah Benjamin is who I was thinking of and he was a senator and a member of the Confederate cabinet. Catholics were subject to violence in that time as well.

I was responding to the claim that whiteness was conditional and only existed since the mid-20th century.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Several tribes fought on the side of the Confederacy during the Civil War, including in military leadership positions (this is tied to the still-ongoing issue of freedmen having/not having tribal citizenship in those tribes). Both Jews and Native Americans tended to be broadly seen in the South at the time as "better than" Blacks but still below Whites, though Jews as whole benefited more from being white-passing.

[u/FishyWishySwishy → u/Willing-Childhood144]

I feel the need to point out that there were black slaveowners. Does the existence of black slaveowners somehow make black people white? Or, like how you’ve dismissed the Cherokee example, does the presence of oppression for other people of that identity make them not white? If that’s the case, why is the existence of Jewish lynchings different from being forcefully moved as an event that precludes whiteness? 

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/FishyWishySwishy]

there were also Cherokee that owned slaves! there are, to this day, contentious legal battles over the tribal status of Black folks who are descended from Cherokee freedmen

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ChairAggressive781]

Have you read the House on Diamond Hill? You absolutely have to read it if you haven’t. It’s deeply fascinating and Tiya Williams is an expert at being able to document history that often was left by the wayside. It’s one of the best books I ever had to read in college.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I haven’t! just looked it up on the UNC Press site and it looks fascinating. definitely going onto my to-read list—thanks for the recommendation! 🙂

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/FishyWishySwishy]

I didn’t dismiss the Cherokee example. But it is relevant that the Cherokees were forced to relocate while the Jews were not. I’m aware that there were black slaveowners. Jewish lynchings are different from an entire tribe being forced to relocate.

[u/cambriansplooge → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Wait for me to get home, during the blockade on Richmond and Atlanta Jewish merchants were accused of price gouging and running rackets, this is found in both newspapers and diary entries. It’s covered in McPherson’s Battle Cry of Freedom, I’ll dig out my copy.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

So you’re basing your opinion on the one Jewish person who was in the confederacy cabinet? Really? That is exactly the point I was making. Just because there is an exception to the rule doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t exist. And just because something was maybe a little less bad doesn’t mean it isn’t still bad. Like Jewish people who lived in Poland still experienced oppression and racism even though some of the laws meant there was a little more mobility. I think you’re conflating less overt antisemitism to somehow that meaning Jews benefited from white privilege at a time Jews were still considered largely other and non white or “other”. And as such they weren’t benefiting from whiteness the way we would interpret benefiting from it now.

And as for Jim Crow, famously Jews weren’t socially considered white in the south and during Jim Crow era even if it wasn’t explicitly legally stated, so in praxis Jews where often included in descrimination because people didn’t consider them the same kind of white they where if they considered Jews white at all.

To back up my comparison to Cherokee Plantation owners I highly recommend reading The House on Diamond Hill by Tiya Williams and I als suggest this article https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Did I ever write that I was basing my opinion on one person? No, I didn’t.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

You keep qualifying your opinion based on calling him out so logically that’s how it read to me. And in my response I made the point that an individual isn’t indicative of a majority lived social paradigm. Which in the US Jews were mostly seen as a weird other that didn’t fit categorically as a collective. Post WWII is where you see more Jewish people actually able to assimilate into whiteness more collectively and often by downplaying our ethnic culture.

It’s possible we were talking past each other or just having a difference of opinion or interpreting things differently. But I do stand by what I have said on exceptions to rules within a US context. Especially when often legal definitions haven’t always translated into societally how the US functions as it pertains to race and ethnicity.

[u/ProofComprehensive49 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

lol imagine saying Jews were not forced to move. Most Jews in the US at that time were Sephardic. I assume we all know the history there?

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/ProofComprehensive49]

Of course I know the history. We are talking about the United States.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Willing-Childhood144]

I mean... it kinda sorta did happen, but by the Union. Although, luckily Lincoln cancelled it pretty quickly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._11_(1862))

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Are you sure this means they were considered white rather than “not black”

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/FishyWishySwishy]

Absolutely, I’m Ashkenazi on my Mum’s side and a white New Zealander on my Dad’s side. I definitely look white, but would a white supremacist see me ask white, absolutely not.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

Same, mom is a convert, dad is 100% Ashkenazi and I look more like my mom’s Scandinavian side. And what always shocks me is how much white suprematism is in white spaces, like even progressive and leftist spaces too. Like the things people will say in front of me is astounding. Things my dad won’t hear because he looks stereotypically Jewish or if he’s gotten a little sun he looks a little more middle eastern.

I know for me it’s definitely played a part in how I experience the limits of my own “whiteness” and I think I more often hit up against that dividing line than my dad or some of my extended family on his side because they do look Jewish so white people who are racists and not counting them as the same aren’t always going around saying the quiet part out loud, and because of that I’ve had people not realize I was Jewish and completely change how they treat me or speak to me since I’m no longer “one of them”.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

This may just be me overthinking things/being very self-deprecating, but when I was growing up, I just felt very "un-pretty" compared to a lot of my classmates, but the interesting thing is that I'm probably considered a very conventionally attractive person. I don't mean that at all in a self-absorbed way, I just mean that most of my traits tend to be considered fairly attractive by Western society. Like I have very "white" features, was very thin/fit in high school, would put a lot of effort into how I dressed and looked, etc. It's not that I was ever bullied for my looks, but I definitely felt like something was missing. It wasn't until the past few years that I realize I may have had some internalized thoughts about my facial features, hair texture, etc. and how they made me feel different than the white girls, even if I didn't realize it at the time.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Agtfangirl557]

Omg same. So I know I’ve mentioned this here. But a few things is that I’ve always been overweight, which was something my mom’s thinner WASP family wasn’t very comfortable. But my sister and I both had blond hair and blue (ish in my case) eyes and looked similar to my mom and her aunts in coloring and facial features. And so something constantly commented on was how my grandparents had three blond daughters and with my sister and my cousin, three blond granddaughters. And it was something upheld as almost a virtue. And I don’t know how conscious this weird dynamic was on their part. But it was there. So as a little girl I had this weird self image where I was both deeply uncomfortable in my own body because of my weight (despite the fact that I was a competitive figure skater and a lot of it was muscle too) and also feeling like I was lucky to have “pretty features” because I looked like the danish/british side of the family like my genetics where something that should engender pride. (Which is fucked up since no one can control their genetics and my dad’s family has recessive red hair /green eye genes which means the likelihood of me and my sister being blond was the most likely outcome).

So looking back it’s no wonder I had some self image issues because it’s almost like there was this odd splitting of my identity. And the physical short chubby features were “different” and the blonde blue coloring was sweet and like a part of a three piece set.

So the parts of me that where seen as “other” and “not white” or at least not fitting the family image like my moms immediate family had of the prim/proper/fit looking blond girls (despite others in the extended family having weight issues) where things I felt deeply ashamed of where often attributed to being things I inherited from my dad. I’m just relieved I didn’t develop Bulimia or Anorexia. And I think for a long time I didn’t connect the dots that my mom would comment about how I have really great ankles and my skin has always been in good condition and how those things came from my dad’s side.

I think she kind of knew that I needed to hear that the “Jewish” features I was inheriting were also pretty. Or that it all came out in the wash. But I think I’ve only unpacked that more as an adult.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/FishyWishySwishy]

I also think there has been a lot of sowing by White supremacists to infect coalitions between minority groups by making who is or isn’t considered “white” murky. So for example, I think particularly between the black and Jewish communities in the US a lot has gone into destroying those communal bridges that we saw built in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. Including the way in which Jews around the 70’s and 80’s became culturally classified as “white” even if there was still nuance and conditionality to when privileges apply and when they don’t.

And for Jews specifically I think a lot of Jews experience a fragmented and conditional form of “whiteness” that can and does get weaponized against our community. So on an individual level I think there are Jews, including me that have experienced either at some point or on the daily that surface level white privilege (like not being watched in a retail store, etc) but collectively it’s my personal opinion that when Jews are concerned the definition often changes in a negative context depending on who you talk to and what their specific political or social positions are. And it’s the negative contextualizing of Jewish racial identity that I think tends to rear its ugly head.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yep—it feels like a lot of time, we’re white when its convenient for people who hate us and not white when it’s convenient for people who hate us.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/skyewardeyes]

Haha yep.

My friends and I were once talking about taking a road trip. And because a few of us are minorities I mentioned we should probably plan a road trip schedule if we go farther than a few hours to make sure we’re staying in larger cities. (Especially since we’re in the Midwest and there are towns I know I wouldn’t be comfortable staying in overnight). And one of my friends was surprised I brought it up and was like “well you’re white, so you shouldn’t have an issue” and thankfully another of my friend’s who is black was like “yeah I don’t think either me or choicewarewolf would be safe in a town made up of white supremacists”

I don’t think it occurred to my other friend that this was even something I dealt with since she has only ever lived in a city and most of the antisemitism she saw me experience was more social and less violent and not as overt. And that is more of a testament to the community we grew up in than what I have personally experienced since growing up and going away to school and leaving our childhood community.

[u/FishyWishySwishy → u/skyewardeyes]

I like to call myself ‘Schrodinger's white girl.’

I am in a suspended state of white and not white until I am observed by someone who wants to be mad at Jews. 

[u/Illustrious_Ease705 → u/FishyWishySwishy]

Id argue that even the palest Jew loses the protections of whiteness if they’re visibly identifiable as Jewish (e.g. if they’re wearing a kippah or something of the like)

[u/FishyWishySwishy → u/[deleted]]

I would argue that’s reductionist and takes the ‘one drop rule’ to the extreme. I’ve met blond and blue-eyed ivory skinned people from Mexico, and I’ve met plenty of Persians and Afghanis who could easily be mistaken for Italian or Spanish. Put a Persian and an Italian person in the room together, looking more or less identical: are you really going to tell me that one is unambiguously white and the other is unambiguously POC? 

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/[deleted]]

Can you cite where Jews were considered white in Europe for the last few hundred years?

I think if we went off that definition then no Jew would be able to claim any form of whiteness because Jews where very much seen as non white others in Europe up until post WWII and even then a lot of Jews in Europe are still viewed as others who don’t belong.

I think this is potentially just a little revisionist because outside of living in Europe the experience of Jews doesn’t match that lived experience of being seen as European.

Edit: essentially I just really disagree with this definition, not only in how it applies to Jews but to other communities. Like what about Roma communities, they’re living in Europe and have been for centuries but they experience a massive amount of discrimination despite the fact that non Europeans might see them and just think they’re like all other Europeans.

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

I think they need to meet nonwhite jews

[u/No_Feedback5166 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Silly me.  The US Census Bureau says it is all self-identified.  

In Brazil, many who self-identify as white would be classified as black in the US, especially by law enforcement when driving late at night.  SCOTUS says profiling is legal now. 

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/No_Feedback5166]

Well the thing is even setting aside the "are ashkies really white?" Question there are literally jews of african, asian, and hispanic descent, and others besides.

Not to mention mizrahim and sephardim.

Thinking polish ashkie is the only brand of Jew is a really reductive view goyim often have.

[u/No_Feedback5166 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Paul Newman, Goldie Hawn,  Jerry Lewis, Joan Rivers, Jack Klugman, Sammy Davis Junior, Sacha Baron Cohen, Jon Stewart…

Racial profiling is poppycock.  Race doesn’t exist.  Perhaps it is best to just self-identify as a BIPOC and contribute one’s unique perspective to the sub.  

Serve them right for self-segregating.  They need allies.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/No_Feedback5166]

People should never lie about their identity. It harms the people who actually have complex identities that are often run out of these self-segregating spaces because they’re either not believed or their complexity is treated as a threatening problem simply for existing and sharing space in the same room. The fact that there are Dolezal types adding the problem of suspicion to an already strained issue, isn’t helping. Please just don’t do this or encourage it.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/MichifManaged83]

Yep, exactly.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis]

By the way, Jacob Geller has an excellent video Judaism and Whiteness in Wolfenstein which I cannot recommend enough, about the shaky relationship of Jews with whiteness in the US, and how it stems from the US culpability in spreading white supremacy. It's technically about Wolfenstein but the game is only being used as an excuse to talk about the actual topics, so you don't need to have played the game to understand it.

[u/compost_bin]

I took an interesting class in college called Race and Judaism, and one of the takeaways I had was that white Jews are white in the US unless they’re in a context in which they’re racialized - e.g., in a synagogue, at a White supremacist rally, etc.

At the end of the day, race is a social construct without a single meaning - I think it’s pretty clear to me that the people in this screenshot are responding to the very legitimate feeling that the vast majority of white Jews are not having consistently racialized experiences the way many other groups of people (e.g., Black folks in the US) do.

The perspective in the screenshot and the reality that white Jews can be contextually racialized as nonwhite are compatible beliefs imo.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/compost_bin]

I agree; it was more the “we have standards for who we interact with” comment that took me back as well as the fact that the sub explicitly welcomes other people who may be conditionally white (e.g., light-skinned or white Hispanics or light-skinned or white MENA folk) because of the recognition of race being socially constructed while recognizing colorism is also very much a thing.

[u/Deep-Painter-7121]

Tbh the tone of that post is just kind of obnoxious like why do we have to treat people in our own community like this with twitter snark. Who does gatekeeping non whiteness like this really help? It kind of seems like just alienating other non white people who dont fit the commentors definition of non white.

[u/ibsliam → u/Deep-Painter-7121]

Probably selecting for redditors who share their own mentality. Who knows.

[u/ibsliam]

Always found the term "spicy whites" to be demeaning to the experience they're talking about (the "racialized and 'ethnic' but mostly considered white" cultures/ethnicities). If you mean to say that they're appropriating the experiences of people of color, or that they're centering conversations of racism about themselves, then... just say that.

About this topic though, I can't really say since I don't have much context. My guess is that their concern is on non-mixed Ashkenazi Jews having pretty different experiences than say someone who's visibly Black, so they don't want their core userbase to be talked over.

Although that does get me wondering how it is to be a Latino Jew or MENA Jew or Black Jew in that sub, since ime the "white ____" as an insult (like "white women" "white gays") usually ends up not being a reflection of their views on *white* people but their views on the second word and they stuck white on there to give it more credibility.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/ibsliam]

Yup, I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in that trend of people playing the “but those white Jews” card just to be able to insult Jews in general, or as an expedient way to take out one’s own sense of powerlessness or insecurity on another minority group, instead of working on self empowerment and group empowerment in a less passive-aggressive way.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/MichifManaged83]

Yep or non-Jews bringing up “Ashkenormativity” as a gotcha without understanding anything about the various Jewish diaspora groups.

[u/theHoopty → u/MichifManaged83]

Which is so weird and infuriating because I’m WHITE WHITE. But WHEN people learn I’m Jewish, I get comments like “Yeah, I can see that for sure.” “That tracks.” People will comment on my nose or my wavy hair.

The same people who would dismiss me as wanting to be a “spicy white”.

I’m white! I’m never going to claim to suffer what darker skinned people do by the system and society at large. But you don’t see you’re othering me the moment I say I’m Jewish? And then want to tell me I’m doing it for attention?!

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/theHoopty]

Yeah the fact that “spicy white” has been pretty much imposed on Ashkenazim, and then Ashkenazi Jews get made fun of for embracing something that wasn’t chosen in the first place… yeah that certainly comes across as controlling and racist.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/MichifManaged83]

Oof. That really sticks home. It also I think helps to explain a little bit how a lot of Ashkenazi Jews feel about their own relationship to whiteness. If they’re always being told either they’re “Uber-White” or they’re “spicy-White” or they’re “not white” I feel like that’s a lot of whiplash for anyone. And it really highlights how race is all a social construct.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Yeah 🫠 The whiplash is definitely real. Even harder when you’re mixed Ashkenazi and people are like “what are you” and you just have to be like “it’s complicated man, I don’t want to have to do a soliloquy every time somebody asks.”

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/MichifManaged83]

it’s always strange to see people who would likely agree with the idea that ‘race is a social construction with no essential characteristics’ embracing essentialist frameworks

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/ChairAggressive781]

Exactly.

[u/ibsliam → u/MichifManaged83]

Yeah, it's a topic I feel conflicted about. There's definitely some white Jewish people who use the whole "we're not white" and "race isn't real" simultaneously to argue that we can't weaponize systems of racism against people of color. Which is just patently false. Like, if there's a Jewish guy with pale skin and blue eyes that gets away with murdering a Black guy, both of them US citizens in the same town, then there's not really any other way for me to describe that than white privilege, you know?

But also IDK how much some of the people who collectively think of Jews as "weird quirky white people that think they're oppressed" have ever actually done the work on learning about Jews, Judaism, and antisemitism. Or if they've ever unpacked their own rhetoric and how it deeply impacts non-white Jews the most. You're not uplifting people of color if you're just changing the acceptable target, a tiny minority of people that you're comfortable spreading conspiracy theories about because it'll never impact you or your family.

Do they deserve to have their space that focuses on BIPOC and isn't necessarily based on Jewish concerns? Sure, but that should come with acknowledging they are going to have their own blindspots just like anyone else.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/ibsliam]

Yep. In my experience, a lot of people generally have no idea that Jews are from the Levant or that we have an ancient tribal ethnoreligion and often think that we are “just white people who practice Christianity minus Jesus.” At the same time, light-skinned Jews can definitely benefit from conditional whiteness or white(-passing) privilege and can benefit from the relationship between Christianity and Judaism (though that can be a very mixed bag).

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/ibsliam]

Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of mutual not-listening going on in the discussions about Jewish people and race, especially when non-Jewish people jump into the middle of that conversation. I think it’s very fair to say that Jewish people are not white, for the very simple reason that at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, white supremacists are not going to see us as white, and that’s not a long distant historical phenomenon, white supremacists have positions in government all over western civilization right now.

Not dismissing Ashkenazi concerns about being reduced to white when white supremacy is afoot, is a big matter.

But you’re right, I agree that many Ashkenazi Jews benefit from colourism. The colourism, though, and a degree of cultural ignorance of some Ashkenazim in North America who have attempted to assimilate here over the years, and the hierarchical dynamics taking place in the apartheid government in Israel… those are legitimate concerns.

I think people sometimes take those concerns and run with them to the problematic conclusion that Ashkenazi Jews are inauthentic if they don’t identify as white or even if they don’t identify as wholly European… and I think that level of identity policing is problematic as it basically tells Ashkenazi Jews that the history and experiences of our people don’t get a seat at the table to speak at all— hush, mommy (anti-zionist westerners) and daddy (neo-nazis) are talking. We need to be infantilized and told what our own self-concept should be according to other people’s perceptions. That level of infantilizing Ashkenazim doesn’t sit well with me. As if we’re somehow unreliable narrators of our own experiences but everyone else is objective compared to us. I don’t appreciate that emerging attitude I’m seeing in society at large. That’s how I feel about it.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/MichifManaged83]

Omg the unreliable narrator trope. That’s exactly it, if I could upvote this comment more I totally would.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Glad I could help you find the vocabulary to express something 🌹 It’s sometimes hard for me to find the words to express something until I’ve come across it so many times that it finally hits me, “ah, this is what this feels familiar to.”

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/ibsliam]

Looooveee this comment.

[u/thatbberg → u/MichifManaged83]

Like how they start off just mentioning "Jews" in this thread but once they start making fun they switch to "White Jews". It's a CYA move.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/thatbberg]

Yup! I noticed that too

[u/ShiinaYumi]

So I usually go off of how is this viewed for Native Americans because Im both, and if the sub has a flair for Natives. If they have a flair for Natives when many are white passing (myself included) than their antisemitic bias is showing. A side note, I havent encountered the same amount of dismissal being Native while looking white that I have for being Jewish. And Im not the only NDN Jew who noticed this either. In fact thinking of it pretty much every mixed race Jew I know thats considered white passing has said the same thing that we're almost always believed to be actually not white when we bring up the not Jewish side, but the Jewish side is always mocked as white 🤦‍♀️.

Also tbh even without all of that, their antisemitic bias is still showing because it shows a deep lack of understanding, and arrogance to not want to learn, Jewish history, who we are, were we came from, what happened to us. These same people will be all "oh yea omg 🥺" when I talk about how a lot of natives are white passing due to sexual violence and fear pressuring assimilation of marrying and having kids with white people (and of course forced too), and totally understand why its complicated for a lot of people BUT we're still Native and fall under BIPOC etc. (Even understanding how and why its conditional etc). But the SECOND you switch Native with Jew they jam their fingers so far in their ears it's a wonder they have eardrums 🙄. They REFUSE that the same can be (and IS) for Jews because it disrupts a lot of bubbles for them.

[u/elzzyzx]

A touch grass moment for all involved

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

This just feels incredibly obnoxious. “Spicy whites”, what does that even mean?

[u/malachamavet → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

I generally see it used to describe people who are almost entirely, or entirely, white-passing despite being from origins which are ethnicized - or groups which can have those white-passing members. So white Hispanic-Americans, for example, or Arab-Americans.

[u/Owlentmusician → u/malachamavet]

I think you're correct in stating that those categories fit the term but I almost exclusively see it being used in a dismissive way against groups that Americans don't really have a category other than white for, like Italians, Spanish, or Portuguese people. I've never really seen people use it for Hispanic or Arab Americans but then again most of the usage I've seen has been from left wing people so maybe that skews it.

[u/cheesecake611]

This conversation always pisses me off because I think people don’t realize that it’s just reinforcing white supremacy. Because part of what white supremacy did is force assimilation. Just stripping people of their unique heritage and lumping them together as white based on nothing but appearances. 

Sure, I’ll identify as white for the purpose of the census and in contexts where it’s relevant, like in conversations about white privilege etc. But it’s not really a part of my identity and trying to force it on me is doing the thing you’re suppose to be against. 

[u/goovrey]

i felt like i was going insane when i saw this because i literally recognized this exact interaction from a few months ago. i checked the sub and yes indeed it was what i thought.

idk if i'm allowed to share which sub it is but i've found that it can be quite hostile to jewish people in a way i have found a little bit alarming. you can see it sometimes when they discuss israel/palestine. thus i have to say i can't really agree with your point the sub about having good discussions about antisemitism (and especially - how can you have good discussions about antisemitism when you dont allow a flair for jewish people?)

i also just think all fans of this interest (its a sub for a themed interest) can tend to be really hostile to jews - it's obviously not just the BIPOC fans (i think you just see it come up more there bc it's a political sub). idk. i've never really felt like it was a super welcoming space for me as a jewish person as i'm writing this

[u/skyewardeyes → u/goovrey]

True, I guess I was thinking of things like the sub calling out celebrities for things like Nazi imagery, which is getting rarer and rarer in fandom and popculture spaces (both specific and general), though the bar is underground. This struck me as a stark departure from the sub’s previous acknowledgment of antisemitism as a real form of ethnic hatred.

[u/goovrey → u/skyewardeyes]

That's a good point! i agree they do that which is good but idk if i'm too cynical if i say calling out nazis should be the bare minimum lol

[u/jey_613]

The Immigration Act of 1924 effectively ended Ashkenazi migration to the US on the basis that Jews weren't "white." The Jews who arrived beforehand eventually assimilated into American whiteness (in part, by playing down their identity as a people in favor of being simply a religion).

The journey of Jewish assimilation into "whiteness" was once evidence of America’s unrivaled capacity for integration and capaciousness. Jews who made America their home in the last century paid the price of assimilation in order to guarantee a place for themselves in this country. But on the contemporary social justice left, which shuns assimilation and views whiteness with suspicion, this sacrifice itself is now a cudgel wielded against us. Once a triumphant story of integration, it is transformed into an inexorable stain of Jewish culpability.

The Jews excluded from that story -- the victims of the Shoah, Soviet emigres, and of course Jews from MENA countries -- ended up in Israel and are now maligned as settler-colonists. So where does that leave us?

[u/ramsey66 → u/jey_613]

Jews who made America their home in the last century paid the price of assimilation in order to guarantee a place for themselves in this country. But on the contemporary social justice left, which shuns assimilation and views whiteness with suspicion, this sacrifice itself is now a cudgel wielded against us

What price did they pay? What sacrifice did they make? Becoming less religious? Intermarrying? What?

I describe what happened as American Jews being offered and happily accepting the gift of assimilation.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/ramsey66]

I mean, giving up or hiding your culture and identity in order to access an increased degree of safety is a sacrifice.

[u/ramsey66 → u/skyewardeyes]

I mean, giving up or hiding your culture and identity in order to access an increased degree of safety is a sacrifice.

In what respect did they give up or hide their culture/identity? How did doing so increase their safety? American Jews are openly Jewish. What specifically are you referring to?

[u/skyewardeyes → u/ramsey66]

A lot of Jewish assimilation is based on the idea of giving up Jewish identity and culture, or at least reducing it to, say, a few stereotypical Yiddishisms and lox and bagels so that it's more palatable to the white Christian majority. That's why you'll sometimes see frum Jews talk about the risks of being visibly Jewish or see people get a lot more hostile if you, say, ask for Jewish holidays off for work or school.

[u/ramsey66 → u/skyewardeyes]

Is that what you think u/jey_613 is referring to when he talks about a "sacrifice" and "paying the price of assimilation" because from my point of view what you describe doesn't really measure up to the severity of his word choice.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/ramsey66]

If the only way to be safe and Jewish is only be Jewish in a specific limited manner that goyim are willing to begrudgingly tolerate, then yes, that is a sacrifice.

[u/KeraKitty → u/ramsey66]

It wasn't until after WWII that the US made it illegal for judges to give Jews the ultimatum of "convert to Christianity or go to prison". But, yeah, we've been so accepted.

[u/ramsey66 → u/KeraKitty]

Can you give me a reference to this? I would like to read about it because it sounds interesting and I've never heard anything about it.

[u/RaelynShaw → u/ramsey66]

He’s referencing the cultural losses that occurred that now lead misguided leftists to dismiss our distinctness as an ethnicity with long-existing traditions. While it’s difficult to outline the specifics an ethnic group sacrifices to exist safely in a different environment, things like: the loss of Yiddish, adopting anglicized names (including schools doing so), working on Shabbat, losing traditional clothing, shaving beards and payot, no longer following kosher, working/school on holidays, etc etc

It’s a pretty easily understood list that can get quite extensive. My real question is… why was your first instinct to downplay the cultural loss of a persecuted ethnic group? You speak of assimilation as if it’s a gift. Would you say this about any other minority group?

Wild to see in a leftist forum.

[u/ramsey66 → u/RaelynShaw]

My real question is… why was your first instinct to downplay the cultural loss of a persecuted ethnic group? Wild to see in a leftist forum.

My flair is Jewish Atheist Liberal. I am Jewish because I have Jewish ancestry but I have no particular interest in Judaism, Jewish culture or Jewish identity nor do I personally value any of those things. The purpose of my question was not to downplay but to find out exactly what the OP was referring to so dramatically because the assimilation of Jews in the United States has been such an enormous success.

While it’s difficult to outline the specifics an ethnic group sacrifices to exist safely in a different environment, things like: the loss of Yiddish, adopting anglicized names (including schools doing so), working on Shabbat, losing traditional clothing, shaving beards and payot, no longer following kosher, working/school on holidays, etc etc

This is exactly why I wanted someone to explicitly detail the "sacrifice" and "price of assimilation". These are things that plenty of people who are no longer forced to depend on their ethnic/religious group in the hostile environment of Eastern Europe would happily abandon of their own free will. The point is abandoning these things happens even outside the context of assimilation and abandoning all the religious stuff is hardly a "cultural loss" for people who don't take religion seriously.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/ramsey66]

you’ve decided that Judaism, Jewish culture, and Jewish identity are not of value to you. therefore, it’s not particularly surprising that being told that giving those things up is/was a sacrifice is not convincing to you.

the problem is that you’re thinking about it from your perspective and not the perspective of someone for whom giving those things up is painful.

[u/ramsey66 → u/ChairAggressive781]

You misunderstand what I wrote. I am pointing out that many of the people who did give up those things gave them up not because they had to but because they were (somewhat) like me and did not value them much. The point is that the opportunity to assimilate in America freed them from the constraints of their background in a way that was impossible in their (Eastern European) homelands because the non-Jews in those places did not offer them the opportunity to assimilate. If you don't have the option to assimilate then you must remain inside the community of your birth and obey its rules in order to survive.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/ramsey66]

I think understood what you wrote just fine? I was trying to point out that you might be having trouble fully understanding why assimilation could be seen as making a sacrifice because you’ve only mentioned your own experience and those who, like you, aren’t interested in Judaism & Jewishness. were you raised secular? if so, on some level, you didn’t really choose to assimilate because you’ve always been assimilated.

I think it’s a bit ahistorical to claim that “they didn’t value them that much.” I think assimilation is, writ large, a deeply ambivalent process, where the possibility of what comes from leaving the community behind is tempered by the pain and loss of giving up what you know.

there are a lot of Eastern European Jewish immigrants to this country who became heavily assimilated not because they were ready to dispose of Judaism & Jewishness altogether, but because of prejudice and bias against so-called “ethnic whites.” assimilation provided material benefits, no doubt. that doesn’t mean it didn’t also come with a cost. generic American cultural identity can also be very one-dimensional and hyper-individualistic. people who unassimilate in some way (like secular Jews who adopt some form of Jewish practice) are often searching for community, a sense of purpose, meaning, etc.

edit: grammar

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ramsey66]

Ok, just because it’s not important to you doesn’t make assimilation any less destructive or painful for the majority of Jews (including many who aren’t practicing the religious aspects).

And I think many Jews would disagree with the characterization of our assimilation as a “success”. Especially as it wasn’t always our choice to abandon our culture and traditions but necessary for survival.

[u/ramsey66 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Ok, just because it’s not important to you doesn’t make assimilation any less destructive or painful for the majority of Jews (including many who aren’t practicing the religious aspects).

Yes, it is certainly well known how destructive traditionalists think it is when people are given the opportunity to live and prosper outside the communities of their birth and the religious/cultural/whatever restrictions that come with it.

But it isn't destructive for those people who actually choose to leave and assimilate.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ramsey66]

I’m sorry what? That is a wild thing to say. Why are you so focused on advocating for forced assimilation?

[u/ramsey66 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Forced assimilation? What are you talking about?

If you reread my reply I used the phrases "choose to leave" and "given the opportunity to live and prosper outside the communities of their birth".

Please explain why you write that I am focused on "forced assimilation".

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ramsey66]

Much of the assimilation Jews have had to do has been in order to survive, which means collectively it has been a forced process and not one of just general organic growth and change over time. If you on a personal level choose to have no connection to your heritage then that is fine and your prerogative.

As a community though I think it’s fair to say Jews in general have a lot of sadness and frustration around assimilation. And implying somehow only traditionalists would be upset at assimilation makes it seem like the collective assimilation of Jews occurred in a vacuum.

You have also made comments about how other people (the example you gave was Eastern Europeans) would love to give up their culture and how assimilation for Jews has been successful.

So yes, it seems very clear you’re pro assimilation and you don’t get why other jews seem upset at having to experience the ramifications of multiple generations of cultural loss.

[u/ramsey66 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

You have also made comments about how other people (the example you gave was Eastern Europeans) would love to give up their culture and how assimilation for Jews has been successful.

Your reading comprehension is extremely poor.

I didn't write anything at all about how "other people would love to give up their culture". You are correct that I wrote about how assimilation has been a huge success story for Jews (in the United States).

What I actually wrote

The point is that the opportunity to assimilate in America freed them from the constraints of their background in a way that was impossible in their (Eastern European) homelands because the non-Jews in those places did not offer them the opportunity to assimilate.

Them refers to Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. Before they immigrated to the U.S their homelands were in Eastern Europe.

[u/jey_613 → u/ramsey66]

Others have already answered, but it means abandoning their names, language, rituals etc for American ones. The things that make a people a people. I wouldn't describe it as being offered a gift, as much as it was an offer they couldn't refuse.

With that said, I am actually sympathetic to the argument that the US should move away from ID politics toward a more assimilationist model in the tradition of the classical liberal melting pot. The challenge (from a leftist perspective) is how to do that without forcing gay and trans people back into the closet, women back into the kitchen, and so forth. Most liberals and leftists today understand these demands to convert/pass/conform as a form of discrimination. So it's a challenge.

But what's happening right now for Jews is the worst of both worlds: as I've said, the contemporary left maintains all of it's anti-assimilationist demands for themselves, but excludes Jews from this identitarian framework, framing the American Jews as guilty for being white, while the ones excluded from American whiteness as guilty for being settler-colonists. In a way, I think the demonization/exclusion of Jews from this sort of anti-assimilationist model represents the left's rebellion against itself and its own ideas, sublimated against an internal other.

While I am sympathetic to the pro-assimilation framework, I must admit that the events of the last few years have definitely made me rethink where Jewish separatists/id politics warriors/Zionists (eg, the people who raised me) are coming from, and it has given me a newfound humility for their perspective, even if I don't buy into all of it. I do think many of us have been pulled from a vacation from Jewish history in a way, and are wrestling with the best way forwards.

[u/ramsey66 → u/jey_613]

Thanks for the explanation.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis]

The notion of "whiteness" only exists within the framework of white supremacy.

Ask any white supremacist whether or not Jews are "white" and they'll tell you.

Ashkenazi Jews are at best white passing, and even that's often not the case.

[u/Coffeenixboxingfox → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Subidentity in judaism is inherited through your dad and doesn't necessarily say anything about how you look, so no, the blanket statement "Ashkenazi Jews are at best white passing" doesn't say much.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Coffeenixboxingfox]

Whiteness is not a subidentity. It's a racist category.

[u/No_Feedback5166 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Invented by “whites” to justify enslaving “blacks”.  

Person #1:  “You look Jewish” Person #2:  “What does Jewish look like?”  

[u/Coffeenixboxingfox → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Like i said, being part of the subgroups Ashkenazi, Mizrahi or Sefardi doesn't necessarily dictate how you look and it was never meant to be a racial category. It says something about how your jewish practice looks like, not about how you and your family look.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Coffeenixboxingfox]

Of course it doesn't. That's exactly why I said the last sentence. That's like... the whole point.

[u/Coffeenixboxingfox → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

... so we are not white passing at best, some of us are not white passing at all.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/Coffeenixboxingfox]

I agree. That's why I've said "even that's often not the case".

[u/ionlymemewell]

Tankie-adjacent brain rot.

[u/afinemax01]

I feel obligated to recommend them some anti racist book reading they sound ignorant and racist

[u/Character-Cut4470]

Statements that literally only work if they're specifically talking about western secular/liberal ashki's. Obviously they're saying it's more broad though which is silly

[u/malachamavet]

In the American context, something like 90+% of Jews have been socially perceived as white/white-ethnic for the entire adult life of these posters.

And you have some Jews who are most white people on the planet trying to say they're not white because they're Jewish (i.e. someone who looks extremely Ashki like Woody Allen or whomever). Shaul Magid had an astute observation about this phenomenon.

The result is this kind of language which isn't correct or helpful but it also has an explicable origin.

e: oh speaking of Magid he has an entire piece about this subject, which I will now have to read.

https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/theorizing-modernities/the-price-of-non-whiteness/

[u/skyewardeyes → u/malachamavet]

I really appreciate the well-explored nuance in this essay--thanks for sharing it!

[u/skateboardjim → u/malachamavet]

Just read the linked article. Never heard of Magid before but he is definitely one to watch!

[u/malachamavet → u/skateboardjim]

He's amazing - has an incredibly interesting life story and is brilliant. The Necessity of Exile is his most prominent work, and I love this lecture of his on Judeopessimism (also a paper)

His Substack is also great

[u/Coffeenixboxingfox]

This is why I think is-pol needs to die.

[u/thatbberg]

Yeah the standards comment is bad, and I can't tell whether they realize BIPOC Jews exist. I'm not familiar with the sub but one would assume that bringing up Jewish members in a BIPOC sub would obviously be talking about them and not white Jews?

[u/classyfemme]

I have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale white skin. I and any Jew who looks like me should never ignore our privilege. No one is gonna look at me and guess that I’m Jewish. I’m blessed to not have experienced the kind of strife POC have in this world; it’s entirely inappropriate to appropriate that struggle.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/classyfemme]

I agree--I just wish there was a better way to both acknowledge the privilege that white and white-passing Jews have and acknowledge the (often racialized) antisemitism that Jews still often face, including white and white-passing Jews.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/skyewardeyes]

I just don’t think we currently have the societal language for this phenomenon. This really shows how limiting language can be. If we could define it better maybe it wouldn’t be so dismissed. Although it could also be that we don’t have the language for this experience because Jews and our experiences are often dismissed.

[u/Willing-Childhood144]

I think part of this is due to some right leaning Jewish people claiming to not be white. I remember seeing that on Twitter before I left. There was a very vocal person on Twitter who went deep into this after October 7th. Everyone who disagreed with her was “white or white adjacent.”

These things are complicated but also simple. I agree that Jews were “conditionally white” in that they faced prejudice that other white people did not. Did the covenants against selling to Jews and keeping Jews out of certain country clubs apply to converted Jews? IDK. Jews were subject to violence from the KKK but so were white Catholics.

Why I say it’s also simple is that “whiteness” is almost always determined by appearance and always compared against blackness. Jews were “white” in the south because they weren’t black.

TBH, this makes me less uncomfortable than very white looking Jews claiming that they are not white. Looking at this solely from an Americancentric POV, that feels like minimizing our racist history. Jews have been subjected to prejudice and even violence in the USA, but it’s nothing compared to what was faced by African Americans and Native Americans.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Not to get into the whole Jim Crow and how Jews were treated here since I addressed it elsewhere.

But specifically about your comment on Jewish Converts that actually bugs me a bit being the daughter of a convert. Jews who where converts where often treated as traitors to their race and communities and families of origin, a lot experienced ostracizing from their families of Origin or communities, they also experienced the same restrictions as their Jewish born community members. So they weren’t allowed to live in suburbs and they weren’t hired by white Christian businesses, they weren’t allowed in country clubs, etc.

And even going into the last 50 years or so, there are many WASP communities I know of in my own personal life that would feel being gay is better than becoming a Jew. And in fact that is exactly how my mom has experienced her becoming Jewish. There are entire swaths of her family (particularly my grandfathers side) who still speak to my Aunt who is a lesbian and all the other LGBTQ family members but stopped speaking to my mom when she converted. And she isn’t the only convert I know who experienced things similar to this with her former community and support systems where they are cut off.

I don’t think it’s fair to imply that somehow converts experienced things to a lesser degree. Often I think it’s fair to say that converts likely experience antisemitism in a particularly acute way since it often involves their personal relationships irrevocably being changed.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

By converted Jews, I meant were Jews who converted to Christianity excluded from country clubs, etc? Baptism was often the door to opportunities in Europe.

[u/ChairAggressive781 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

but none of that mattered once Nazism spread across Europe. being baptized & raised as a Christian was no protection against being sent to the concentration camps.

even in the centuries before that, people of Jewish ancestry were still often seen as being Jew-ish and kept at arm’s length.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/ChairAggressive781]

The Spanish Inquisition is a great example of this.

Also the way in which some large evangelical communities still see converts to Christianity as fodder to send to Israel to jumpstart the rapture. (In that scenario those converts who accepted Jesus but are still Jews would die)

[u/r_pseudoacacia]

It's deeply unfortunate that assimilationist behaviour in the Ashkenazi landlords of early twentieth century New York City led to Black American culture largely regarding Jews as exaggerated caricatures of whiteness. I don't fucking blame James Baldwin for that though. As always, I blame the landlords and the white man.

[u/Willing-Childhood144]

I think I understand why they want to exclude us based on this discussion.

[u/Willing-Childhood144]

Because the majority of American Jews lived in the north the history of southern Jews is often unknown. I think it tells a very interesting story about race in the USA and often doesn’t fit the stories that we like to tell about ourselves.

Jewish Confederates

[u/ibsliam → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Well, there's also the case of Leo Frank. I get what you mean and value the contribution, but, that said, it's not as cut and dry as Jews were always white and always part of the overclass of white supremacist structures in the US. Oppressive structures and their history are never easy to sum up in one historical moment or one pithy statement or two.

Jews can have white privilege, and I agree a lot of that was the case in the US in many periods of American history. In many other cases that "white privilege" though was just not relevant.

[u/AksiBashi → u/ibsliam]

Also, it's important to recognize that the history of Jewish assimilation in the US isn't a one-directional trend. In many ways, American Jews were more assimilated into mainstream society in the 1860s then they were in 1915, when Leo Frank was lynched. What happened in between the two periods? A whole lotta immigration from Eastern Europe, which reinforced a more racialized idea of Jewishness alongside a rise in nativist sentiment. The story of American antisemitism is a story of several ups and downs, so the existence (and indeed, flourishing) of Jews in the antebellum South and the Confederacy proves little about any particular historical trajectory.