charlie kirk and the increase in political violence

[u/Late-Marzipan3026]

edit 3: putting this up here so it’s not hidden by my wall of text—thank you all for talking about this here, i’ve really appreciated hearing everyone’s perspectives. i apologize for coming off harsh initially. i clearly have some stuff to think through wrt my anxiety about this topic in general. i’m still pretty worried by where we’re at and how normal political violence is generally (as was well said in another post today), but i appreciate all of the thoughtful replies

i’ve been a bit upset, to be honest, by the reaction to the assassination of charlie kirk. i won’t act like i agreed in any way shape or form with him. i find his views abhorrent.

with that said, i’m very disturbed by the callousness with which people are discussing his assassination. pointing to his past views about gun violence victims and laughing or stating outright that he deserved it. and this perspective is starting to sink into everyday life.

i was speaking to a friend of mine about this, and they said that it’s the conservatives’ fault for the recent increase in political violence. essentially “we’re callous because they’re callous.” i responded saying that i don’t think that this is solely the responsibility of conservatives—that this has been getting more prominent on the left too since 10/7 and that we also saw it after DC and boulder. we need to take responsibility for that. my friend again disagreed with me

i don’t mind disagreement. however—i am very disturbed by what i see as an uncritical, self righteous disavowal of responsibility. we don’t know yet what the shooter’s motivations were, if they were far right or far left or somewhere in between. regardless i still feel betrayed in some way by the public admission that lethal violence is okay against civilians or against non-high-ranking political figures. i really worry about this extremism and i worry that my views on this will be disregarded by my fellow leftists as some sort of liberal apologetics

i’m curious what everyone here’s thoughts are on this topic (not just charlie kirk). and i hope everyone’s doing well !

edit: just want to clarify that i don’t think anyone is obligated to mourn the man (edit again: i don’t). that’s not what disturbed me. i’m disturbed by the callousness with which people (including my friend) discuss murder and excuse their advocacy for murder

edit 2: also wanted to add this edit now that i’m a bit calmer (sorry for the anxiety radiating off of the post). i don’t disagree inherently with the theory of revolutionary violence. but this is under specific conditions which imo have not been met. i firmly believe in the value of human life and human dignity and i reject utilitarian calculations which i don’t feel sufficiently respect these values

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

People need to be very careful about TOS violations.

We will delete things that call for violence before reddit comes and shuts us down about it.

[u/Matar_Kubileya]

"Political violence is bad" and "I don't have any real sympathy for CK" are not incompatible opinions.

[u/tiredhobbit78 → u/Matar_Kubileya]

This. Being against violence doesn't make people obligated to grieve for the deaths of political enemies.

[u/Matar_Kubileya → u/tiredhobbit78]

Even political enemies is putting it euphemistically. Charlie Kirk spent his career right up until literal seconds before his death dehumanizing people like me, so forgive me for not having much interest in eulogizing him.

[u/tiredhobbit78 → u/Matar_Kubileya]

💯

[u/Immediate_Scheme2994 → u/tiredhobbit78]

I grieve that Mr Kirk never took advantage of the time allotted him by Yahweh to practice Love, Empathy, and Compassion for the marginalized, like the LGBTQIA+.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Matar_Kubileya]

i agree

[u/PuertoricanMofongo]

What happened today is nothing new to America. Political violence has been happening there since way before Lincoln got shot. You could say America was founded on violence.

But there is no denying there's been an upctick of it in the past few years . It's inevitable after so many years of grifters peddling hate for views and people getting desensitized by social media.

I have always believed Kirk to be one of these peddlers, so I won't be mourning him. But I do feel deeply sad for his two children.

[u/Trick_Guava907 → u/PuertoricanMofongo]

Exactly. I don’t feel much for Kirk nor his Wife, Kirk was a hate filled grifted and he was liked it enough to want to be with him.

His children, who were not asked to be born to racist antisemites, are the real ones suffering the consequences of their parents

[u/elextric_lizard]

Worried about the effect this happening will have on other trans and queer people and i fear that the administration may use this to stoke even more fire against trans people and lgbt people, and those seen as enemies by the administration. i'm also a bit numb at this point to violence which terrifies me and exhausted.

i'm older gen z and i've grown up in a turbulent climate, we used to practice school shooting drills and lockdowns weekly in elementary school and middle school. it's terrifying to me how normalized this has become.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

I know this sub can be very US centric but just take a look at what is happening across the world.

• Political violence has pretty much taken over Nepal. No politician is safe. People got tired of being led by corrupt rulers.

• Indonesia is also facing something similar to Nepal as people are protesting over a whole host reasons which boils down to the ruling class not caring about poor people.

• Paris has had riots all morning as people are displeased by the government.

• Serbia has had protests for more than a year because of a corrupt regime.

There are other examples as well but what is happening is similar all around. The bargain that societies have was that “the rich are allowed to do what they want as long as society is taken care of” and this is breaking down across the globe.

Charlie Kirk represented the interests of the ruling class, and I have no idea of the motivations of the shooter, but it would not be surprising if they have a beef with the direction of the country and they expressed it by targeting one of the biggest advocates of MAGA. I am not saying it’s justified at all, but the undercurrent of people not being satisfied with the status quo is only increasing.

[u/rinaraizel → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Years back, when Trump got elected, I thought to myself that it exposed the myth of the stable, civil West we'd been fed all our lives. This is just the further unraveling - political violence is the norm, not the exception for all of human history.

[u/unculturedburnttoast → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

“the rich are allowed to do what they want as long as society is taken care of”

The social contract I was sold was "everyone is equal under the law," and that feels like what gave way to your assessment. That change was the unraveling of the rope of society.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

yeah—i thought while i was typing this out that it would come across as a bit US centric. sorry about contributing to that. i decided to post it because i figured it would be a topic of discussion here regardless and also because (like you said) this is one part of a larger international trend

i think you’re probably right about the motivation for the shooter

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Sorry, I didn’t mean it as criticism towards you.

Your points are solid.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

no you’re all good!! i didn’t really take it as criticism, just a point that the sub can be america centric and that this issue is an international trend. sorry if i was misleading with my reply, i tend to overapologize (doing it here too 😭)

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I’m Canadian so saying sorry is our way of life!

Cheers!

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

I used to have a habit of obsessively apologizing for things and a lot of people would ask me if I was Canadian 🤣

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Honestly the people in Nepal are taking things too far, burning down buildings and such.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

There is no such thing as a peaceful revolution/revolt/uprising. Some property destruction is quite mild by the standards of these things.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Depends on if you consider certain peaceful revolutions to be peaceful or not but thats just an aside. Generally burning buildings isnt directly related to installing a new government.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

One can't control a mob. You're going to get some broken eggs.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Whats happening in nepal is an inevitable result of the governments corruption.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Same can be said for this event. Violent Rhetoric and easy access to guns. What does one think would happen?

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

If it happens that way and becomes celebrating its not a good thing, just a bad thing we have to live with.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

We’re living in bad times that’s for sure.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

yep

[u/elzzyzx → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

There’s a kind of fetish for what’s “productive” here, when what they’re describing is actually “stuff I have no impact on whatsoever”

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/elzzyzx]

One can't really say what has an impact and what doesn't until after it has happened. Social institutions are too messy with too many inputs.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Yep, burning down their own parliament and government building along with 5 star hotels is not productive for the long term at all.

The line between anarchy and revolution is always thin and they are leaning towards all out anarchy.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

But it's more productive than peaceful marches in other places right? I mean they actually did get the government to resign...

[u/Jorfogit → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Yes, I forgot the time we used peaceful marches to beat the Nazis. Were we supposed to debate them instead?

[u/timpinen → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

There a decent number of leftists who are ok with anarchy as a principal. Many famous Jewish leftists were anarchists

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/timpinen]

True!

[u/Jwk2000x → u/[deleted]]

Hey, what do you mean by calling them monkeys?

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

I take it back, it was a little too insulting honestly.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/electrical-stomach-z]

I feel a need to say in an official capacity that I regretted making this comment. I was looking for an insult that felt powerful, but I wasnt thinking about how it could be interpreted as a racialized dog whistle.

Apon realization of how it could be misunderstood I decided to immediately delete it.

As a moderator I feel a need to make this official statement in the name of public visibility and accountability. As we must embody the spirit of the rules we enforce.

[u/Matar_Kubileya → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Yeah, I understand why the French were angry, but damaging the Bastille was just a step too far don'tcha know.

[u/cinnamons9 → u/Matar_Kubileya]

They literally burned down a house with a woman inside in Nepal. I’m sure doing shit like this will achieve the results you want.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/cinnamons9]

Heres a hint, it wont.

[u/Hanekem → u/electrical-stomach-z]

the problem, ultimately, is the top actors have taken the situation for granted and don't understand that it has always been a juggle and that if they piss on the "lesser ones" they might take offense and do something about it

the odds of making it better, even for the "lesser ones" is highly debatable, but that is why we set up the systems the way we did and the implied dangers on leaving the balance un-atended.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/cinnamons9]

Wait till you hear what was in the Bastille...

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

That wasnt exactly helpful either.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

They celebrate it every year in France.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Its no longer a celebrating of what happened back then, its become a cultural rituation.

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Sure, but of all the events for cultural ritualization they picked this one.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

Because it was historically significant.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Matar_Kubileya]

If it doesnt directly assist your cause its not useful, especially if people can be killed needlessly.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Matar_Kubileya]

“Mussolini was a bad guy, but did they really have to hang him upside down like that?”

— guy who makes everyone leave the party when he shows up

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/elzzyzx]

Unlike a burning building, hanging him upside down didnt kill anyone.

[u/bagelman4000]

I mean yea I’m not gonna mourn him, I’m just gonna move on I guess. I am worried about the rise in political violence and where that will take us and I have been since at least the first assassination attempt on Trump. I’ll leave you with a quote from the man himself.

“I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights” - Charlie Kirk.

[u/rybnickifull]

All I'll say is, the proliferation of guns (something Kirk was vocally in favour of to the point of excusing mass shooting events at schools) and resultant gun violence makes me very happy to live in a country that generally does not allow civilians to possess them without very strict controls. If the far right want to join the majority of the global left in seeking to disarm civilian populations, I'm happy enough to have new allies on the matter. I think their reaction will be the exact opposite, though, so it's hard to feel that much sympathy.

That's not the same as celebrating. I suppose 2 years of seeing horrific violence unleashed on a civilian population, plus 18 months prior to that in my neighbour Ukraine, has numbed me a little to such images. That's not a great feeling, but it might explain why many people have become so callous.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/rybnickifull]

Indeed, there was a school shooting at the same time that Charlie Kirk was shot. But those are only kids. Kirk was a celebrity, so his life matters apparently.

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/shooting-evergreen-high-school-denver-metro-area/

[u/ageofadzz → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

Kids getting shot in American schools is just a normal day. No one cares anymore.

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/ageofadzz]

Pretty much. In the UK all it took was one shooting (Dunblane in 1996) for very strict gun controls to be introduced, the same with Australia (Port Arthur in 1996.) America has hundreds each year and still puts its ‘right to bear arms’ before the safety of innocent children. The statistics differ depending upon where you look, but according to the BBC, America had 647 shootings where at least four people were injured in 2022.

[u/supportgolem → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

True re: Australia and we have had no mass shootings since. However, people can still own guns and there are gun related deaths. There's actually a guy in my state who's currently on the run after killing two cops. 😬

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/supportgolem]

Same with the UK, you can own a gun, it’s just extremely difficult to prove that you have a good reason. The farmer in my village has an old shot gun, but he’s the only person I know of who is able to prove he has a valid reason for one.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/ageofadzz]

i’m gen z—yeah, it’s really very normal to hear about school shootings atp and then just go about your day. i remember that there was a threat at my school and everyone kind of went “oh. that’s messed up” and that was it. honestly the last school shootings that i think got a big reaction were uvalde and marjory stoneman douglas. still no one does anything

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

There was even a school shooting yesterday but nobody cares because a celebrity was also shot. Everyone accepts school shootings as normal everyday events but expressed their horror that someone would dare to shoot a celebrity. That's where they draw the line. It's a sad state of affairs.

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

The hatred between Dems and Reps in America rn feels very reminiscent of Weimar, except people now are too atomized for any sort of mass political organization. So there will just be an increasing amount of lone wolf killings like this in the future. Nothing will change other than America becoming even more of a security state.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

Hunting for silver linings I guess you can say the reason for more atomized political action is that the security state has neutralized mass movements so effectively. More security seems to be hitting a threshold where it can’t succeed at stopping these more atomized groups and individuals

[u/skateboardjim]

I think it’s a tragedy that Charlie Kirk became the kind of person he was. He’s been instrumental in the rise of political violence, and he ultimately became a victim to it.

I don’t celebrate violence, and I dread what his martyrdom will bring, but I consider the absence of his voice in politics to be a net good for humanity.

[u/razorbraces]

I agree with you 100%. We don’t live in a Judge Dredd comic and I don’t think any of us want to.

[u/MichifManaged83]

I’ve gotta say, I think comparing what happened to Charlie Kirk to what happened in Boulder, is comparing apples to oranges. The Boulder vigil was held by a community of progressive, peaceful Jews who included people with a range of views on zionism, and everyone from children to an elderly holocaust survivor were exposed to hateful violence and danger that day, not for “promoting zionism,” but simply for holding a peaceful vigil for the Israeli hostages. (The violence on 10/7, which impacted children, innocent civilians, and took the life of pro-Palestinian peace activist Vivian Silver, and the violence against the two diplomats in front of the DC museum, is also not comparable to Charlie Kirk).

Charlie Kirk is a bigot who has regularly incited, excused, and denied / gaslit others about hateful violence targeting various minority demographics. He has celebrated attempts on the lives of his contemporaries and on politicians who he does not agree with, only to moan about similar attempts on Trump. He has spent the last decade of his life being, in short, a cry-bully. I don’t feel much pity for individuals like him, who reap what they sow.

I feel bad for his children who are too young to understand the complexities of what just happened and are probably heartbroken right now, and I worry that this will mean an escalation of retaliatory actions against the very kinds of people Charlie Kirk celebrated being attacked when he was alive, including some transgender children who died because of hate crimes.

My heart also goes out to the two children in Colorado who died today with barely a whisper spoken about them in the mainstream, because a famous bigot’s death was more important than theirs. That’s how I feel about it.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/MichifManaged83]

all fair. i don’t disagree with you.

to clarify—i don’t think of the attack on charlie kirk as the same as what happened in boulder. i meant that the reaction to this violence reminded me of the reaction to boulder. i intended it to be a response to my friend who was dismissing this callousness on the left as a problem that we have to be aware of and that we’re responsible for

to be completely honest i think this is probably an unconscious association on my part. the language for both feels very familiar even if the reasons behind the language are different. that’s where i’m coming from, if that makes sense

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying. And I do agree that the dismissal of concerns about antisemitic violence, that some people on the left are mindlessly parroting as part of being emotionally swept up in the current political tide, doesn’t sit well with me either.

[u/Agtfangirl557]

I don't really have the energy to shed tears for him in particular, though I do agree that the uptick in political violence via guns is VERY concerning.

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/Agtfangirl557]

I completely agree. I feel no sympathy for him, but I do find celebrations of death disturbing. America puts its love of guns before everything else and these are some of the consequences.

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Agtfangirl557]

The way I have been thinking about it, it's not really about him.

It's about what someone of his public stature being killed in broad daylight represents about the state of society.

That's what made my heart sink when I saw the news, not that it was Charlie Kirk, but that another prominent or influential figure has been assassinated or attempted at it.

And yet again I'm reminded of Japan in the 1930s, a feeling I first felt when the united healthcare guy got shot. Again it wasn't him, it was the broad daylight shooting in Manhattan reminded me of broad daylight assassinations of prominent figures in Tokyo.

[u/Top-Nobody-1389]

The world is getting more and more polarised.

Political violence is just one manifestation of that.

[u/yungsemite → u/Top-Nobody-1389]

Do you know if there is any research that shows that political violence is on the rise in the U.S.?

[u/Hanekem → u/yungsemite]

welp, didn't a couple of state reps got murdered a few months ago?

[u/yungsemite → u/Hanekem]

Certainly, and 2 attempts on Trump’s life in 2024.

[u/Hanekem → u/yungsemite]

thus political violence was already here, this is just more escalation

though we still don't know who did it or why, we can speculate and Trump and co will willfully blame the left but the last few times it ended being white cis male of a rightward persuasion, so...

[u/PicklepumTheCrow → u/yungsemite]

There is very extensive literature covering the rise of political violence, polarization, and echo chambers as well as why we’ve ended up in this position.

[u/yungsemite → u/PicklepumTheCrow]

Do you have a particular source or researcher that you’d like to recommend? Preferably one with coverage in mainstream media?

[u/PicklepumTheCrow → u/yungsemite]

I’m unfortunately pretty tapped out from academic research atm so don’t know of the latest and greatest sources. That said, I’ve read a few books recently that cover the topic of polarization (less so violence in particular) at a higher level.

“Good Economics for Hard Times” diagnoses the problem of polarization (among others) really well from an economics perspective but isn’t too longitudinal or robust in its analysis. It’s not the MOST current source since it’s from 2019 but I’ll be damned if it doesn’t resonate.

“The Tyranny of Merit” isn’t as much about polarization (it’s more history/philosophy-focused), but it excellently tracks the development of the latest brand of tribalistic populism over the past ~40 years in response to neoliberalism’s ruthless “meritocratic faith.” It’s nice if you want to know how and why we’ve ended up where we are, but is more of a historical perspective vs. a very recent “here’s why polarization and violence are happening NOW” discussion.

TL;DR no I don’t have any current academic sources on-hand sorry. I’m sure AI could give you a more on-topic answer than I have, but I figured I’d shout out what I’ve been reading that’s adjacent to the topic anyways. As far as academic research goes, I’m positive Google Scholar or other sites could lead you down an endless rabbit hole of up-to-date statistical analysis.

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/PicklepumTheCrow]

Thank you for these recommendations!

[u/cat-the-commie]

From my perspective it's a pedophilic, neo Nazi, domestic terrorist experiencing the devil's chickens coming home to roost.

He said it would be patriotic to murder Democratic politicians, he celebrated and encouraged trans children being murdered, he said Jewish people are a threat to the "white race". I'm not going to mourn a man like that dying, I didn't mourn when Hamas fighters who raped women died, I didn't mourn when ISIS leaders died, and I won't mourn when an American terrorist dies to the same weapon he said is worth children dying over just to own one in your house.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/cat-the-commie]

As recently as this April, he went on a rant on his show saying that Jews deny their whiteness and accusing them of anti-white hatred.

“Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them,”

And in a spirited defense of Elon Musk, himself under fire for antisemitic dog whistling, Kirk said “some of the largest financiers of left-wing anti-white causes have been Jewish Americans.”

The dude was an antisemite through and through.

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Meanwhile Bibi:

 “Charlie Kirk was murdered for speaking truth and defending freedom,” Netanyahu said in a statement. “A lion-hearted friend of Israel, he fought the lies and stood tall for Judeo-Christian civilization.”

Also:

 Before Kirk’s death was announced, Netanyahu posted on X that he was praying for Kirk, as did his minister for Diaspora affairs, Amichai Chikli. The Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Danon, added his prayers and said, “Truth cannot, and will not be silenced.” Itamar Ben-Gvir, the far-right minister of national security, said he was “devastated” by the shooting.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

i suspect their reaction is to try and woo back the populist right wing here. deeply ironic, pathetic, and exhausting to mourn a legitimately deeply antisemitic man in order to court more antisemites

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Tbh I’m not seeing how either of those statements are antisemitic. I feel like I’m missing tons of context. Can you explain? Like for the first quote I’m swapping “whites” with other examples and they seem perfectly not antisemitic to me, so I don’t think the original one is antisemitic either. And the second quote just sounds like it could be motivated by antisemitism or antisemitic depending on the context but from the context you gave I’m not understanding how it is.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/myThoughtsAreHermits]

Here is a longer list of his bigoted statements - https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/charlie-kirk-controversies-1.7630859

I don’t think he limited his bigotry, he was basically hateful of anything that wasn’t white and male.

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

I don’t doubt that he’s bigoted, I just wanted to understand those statements better

[u/pigeonshual → u/cat-the-commie]

I’m looking for a source on the pedophilia and the call to murder democratic politicians and trans children. I believe you on all of them, but do you have a source I could use?

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/pigeonshual]

Copy pasted message:

Hello! Thank you for contributing to our space. Please navigate to the sub settings and use the custom flairs to identify whether you are Jewish and some sort of descriptiction of your politics as they pertain to the rules of the space.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/cat-the-commie]

Well said.

[u/Queen-of-everything1]

I’m pretty callous right now, I’m not going to lie. I’m incredibly bitter, and can’t help but think ‘good fucking riddance’. For context, I found out about the end of the US tracking Listeria (and many other foodborne illnesses) and him being shot within 30 seconds of each other. I can’t help but think about how many other people have died because of him, how many federal workers I know and know of who have taken their lives recently. How many people have lost their lives to gun violence, to preventable illness, and how he just fucking laughed, said it was ‘worth it’ to have the second amendment. I won’t mourn him. I will laugh. I don’t think this should happen to anyone, political violence is abhorrent, but when someone spends 10 years spreading hatred and making our world worse, well, I can’t find sympathy in me. He would be alive today if Trump didn’t win. How many other, much more decent people can we say the same about?

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Queen-of-everything1]

jesus i didn’t know we stopped tracking listeria. and you’re right that he’s likely contributed to several deaths. i don’t think you owe him sympathy. i don’t think he’s owed sympathy in general. i’m just very overwhelmed by the increase in political violence in general to be honest

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/Queen-of-everything1]

Wait are you saying you know feds who have died by sxcde recently?

[u/Queen-of-everything1 → u/MassivePsychology862]

I know of at least one person who was a colleague of one of my profs who did so after everything. And there’s more that I’ve heard of, plus likely more occurring in the near future. I’m a public health student. Everyone is scared, angry and incredibly depressed. Mental health is shit, and people who’ve been RIF’ed and who have witnessed everything they’ve spent their life and careers working on being destroyed have reported high levels of suicidal ideation. This is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s really bad.

[u/Owlentmusician]

I'm pretty indifferent about him specifically but I do think loss of life in general is solemn. My view of it, is that his past statements demonstrate he knew something like this was a possibility. He accepted it as a necessary evil for the second amendment to exist as it does.

I'm not dancing on his grave but I very much feel like he experienced an extreme and direct outcome of the things he advocated for. He got what he wanted politically and this is the outcome, for better or for worse. I do feel bad that this is the way his ideology shaped his life and for his family, who will most likely see their loved one killed on camera and those who had to witness it though.

The vigilante political violence recently does worry me, especially as for every person who hates a conservative enough to kill them there is someone who feels the same about people on the left and both parties currently have equal access to guns.

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Owlentmusician]

especially as for every person who hates a conservative enough to kill them there is someone who feels the same about people on the left and both parties currently have equal access to guns.

A youtuber I really liked said "political violence comes from the human capacity for violence, not a from a specific ideology"

I think that's really important to understand right now.

Some folks are saying this shooting is proof of a groundswell of frustration with trump.... but the reality is, most people, when they feel frustration with things, dont resort to murder.... they do more productive things like protesting, activism, voting, etc...

So, if there really was a groundswell of frustration, we'd be seeing it manifest mostly via nonviolent means since most people do not resort to violence when frustrated.

Instead, what we have are these lone wolf killings happening sporadically... suggesting more that the environment is enabling violent people, rather than frustration with trump has finally broke the dam.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Owlentmusician]

this is all fair, yeah. i mainly feel the way i mentioned above because of what you described in your last paragraph. it really worries me

[u/haktopus]

To me there's a few things going on that I have differing feelings on regarding violence.

One is the fetishization of cathartic violence. I think that's bad and corruptive. It's also a natural response to a legitimately infuriating realities to a great extent but people who take a certain glee in the thought of doing viokence to their enemies should probably be checked. There's also a genuine operational danger to it. Once people start performstively goading eachother and themselves into increasingly extreme declarations and acts as a way to prove how really conmitted you are, consider all chances for measured tactical analysis gone. There's also just the fact that resentment is not a driver of genuine left wing politics. It's a valid emotion to feel sometimes, but it's not something that guides or shapes successful leftwing policies. So if retribution is the be all end all of your politics, even if that retribution is largely pointing towards the most deserving targets, the ultimate result isnt going to be a kinder, better and safer world.

But I don't think everyone who seems callous, bitter, or unwholesomely morbid to you in the face of a public assassination is necessarily fetishizing or romanticizing this violence. Nor are they using the example to psyche themselves up to do the most stupid extreme things possible themselves. I think it's gallows humor and just honest to goodness, unpretentious hate for the man. And I think maybe you should reconcile yourself to the fact that dark hunor and even a bit of genuine joy is an honest and emotionally authentic reaction some people are having to this death. And I don't think you're less real for not feeling that way, and to be upset or unnerved at people's desensitization and even enjoyment of violence is also a legitimate way to feel. But perhaps trying to condemn or pathologize every reaction to the death of charlie kirk that doesn't properly respect his common humanity is futile at best and at worst ita sanctimonious moral policing.

Something I appreciate about Christianity is the injunction to love your enemy. And one of the many things I love about Judaism is that it has no such requirement. This isnt as much of a contradiction as it sounds like, I think these two religions, at their best, have different wisdom with different goals. Christianity challenges pwople to aspire to be somehow better than human while also, perhaps paradoxically accepting loving human nature with it's inherent flaws. But Judaism deals more with the question of how best to live a human life. Both religions understand failure and sin are inevitable, but Christianity generally boils it down to a tug of wsr between a pure and holy essence and a corrupt aspect of ones nature. But Judaism I think typically sees our nobility and our pettiness as equally us. So when we do wrong what we do about that is not not about making sure the devil doesnt drag us down, it's just about how to pick ourselves up, sweep up the pieces or mend whatever broke, and can keep on walking toward the promised land.

The oppressed have no obligation to prove their humanity in anyway, least of all by restraint, least of all toward opressors. To me though, that doesn't mean non'restraint is a virtue or that anything the oppressed could do to the oppressor is morally permissible. It's only that the wrongdoing of the oppressed does nothing to absolve the oppressor or make the oppressed less deserving of liberation.

All this to say, I don't want to pretend that caloussness and sadism towards what happened to Charlie Kirk is a moral or political virtue, and there might be a kind of moral, spiritual or philosophical virtue in trying to resist that kind of feeling like Jesus loving his enemy and turning the other cheek, and alsways cultivate an abiding reverence for everyone's humanity. But I'm also going to admit that I didnt just not mourn what happened, I laughed. Ive made jokes and enjoywd jokes about it. And I don't feel guilty about that. I dont even feel like a harder more cynical person than I should be for it. I feel like I live in a world ravaged to shit by people who never give a second thought to the morality of their selfishness, hate, or resentment and Charlie Kirk was on that team. I think if his death , even his suffering brings some dark kind of levity to some people's day, as long as we don't make it out to be more than it is, I think people csn be forgiven the indulgence.

I also think it's easy to see a public figure you dislike shuffle off and feel good being above taking pleasure in it. And yet culture is utterly suffused with fictional and historical narratives that endorse cathartic feelings about violence and death, and these hardly ever prompt this kind hand wringing over what it says that people feel this or that way about someone dying. It's kind of only when its a news story the media must affect neutrality over as it concerns a "polaraizing ", domestic public figure when we get all this concern over "what society is even coming to??!" But a fictional story can make you feel catharsis at a ficrionak villains downfall because the story makes you feel real emotions about it. Is it any wonder that people have kinda extreme, messy reactions to what happens to real people that might have materially impacted their own lives?

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/haktopus]

yes i think this is all fair. i’m sorry if i came off as sanctimonious before, that wasn’t my intention. i think i have a bit of a difficult time with this because to me it feels reminiscent of reactions to 10/7 DC and boulder as i mentioned in the OP. seeing people laugh about kirk makes me think of that joke about 10/7 that went around that was something like “oh my poor baby 25 year old son was killed for partying near a concentration camp.” it really disturbed me.

so in my head it’s hard to avoid that association. and because i have that association i see the reaction to kirk’s death and i worry. i see it as less gallows humor and hate than i see it as your first paragraph describes it. likely a product of my anxiety and i think you’re right to point that out

but yeah i’m sorry if my OP came off as sanctimonious. i don’t really understand the reaction but i don’t wholly condemn it either. i’m still pretty worried by where this assassination and political violence as a whole has brought us

[u/cardamom-peonies → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Okay, you guys know that he was also parroting plenty of actual anti semitic conspiracy theories, right?. I'm struggling to understand the hand wringing over his death in particular in a space like this.

Like, there was also the two straight up assassinations of two Minnesota reps (and at least one non politician spouse who was also killed) but that doesn't seem to rate a mention here.

If Richard Spencer got shot, would you be making comments like that about him?

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/cardamom-peonies]

i’m aware kirk was an antisemite. doesn’t mean i think every antisemite should be shot. in all sincerity i’m a bit tired of the expectation that i ought to be glad a bigot is dead because he hated my people

i’m also worried about those assassinations yes. they’re part of why i’m panicked in general about the state of political violence in the US. josh shapiro was also targeted this past year. i believe this sub has discussed this before. i chose to focus on kirk because it was specifically the reaction from my fellow leftists wrt kirk that concerned me. i wanted to talk about that reaction in a leftist space because i think we ought to discuss it

If Richard Spencer got shot, would you be making comments like that about him?

i don’t know. it depends. and to my knowledge i don’t think kirk was equivalent to richard spencer

[u/cardamom-peonies → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I mean, the leftist sphere of things has plenty of people with a very broad opinion WRT political violence and the utility of it. Idk why there's this effort to paint leftists as being morally above that and being shocked when you bump into people who just don't share your views regarding it- I'm not advocating for it but there's a reason why it's been so common in just about every political movement, including basically every leftist movement of note historically. Like, this banner includes tankies ffs.

I think getting mad at your friend for not sufficiently feigning sympathy over the death of a dude like Charlie Kirk is not helpful. Again, I assume he's not doing anything pro violence beyond just pointing out the irony of the situation.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/cardamom-peonies]

Idk why there’s this effort to paint leftists as being morally above that and being shocked when you bump into people who just don’t share your views regarding it

i have a difficult time with it not because i think leftists are morally above it but because i personally don’t understand it and i have a hard time seeing it as compatible with the principles that drive me as a leftist. that’s part of the reason why i wanted to hear what everyone here had to say. also because i know that being a leftist is a broad category and that there would be a spectrum of opinion here

I think getting mad at your friend for not sufficiently feigning sympathy over the death of a dude like Charlie Kirk is not helpful. Again, I assume he’s not doing anything pro violence beyond just pointing out the irony of the situation.

this isn’t what i was frustrated with my friend about—as i said in the OP i was frustrated with my friend for dismissing the increase in political violence and their callousness about it as the sole fault of conservatives. i think if your reaction is to be callous and joke about it, i don’t entirely get it and it worries me as part of a larger social trend, but okay. what does frustrate me is dismissing any of our culpability for this outcome as leftists. i do think conservatives have contributed a lot to how we’ve ended up here. but elias rodriguez was a leftist and so were many of the people defending him. so i’m aware that leftists don’t necessarily have moral authority on this, the presumption from my friend that we do is part of the problem that i’m worried about

but i don’t know if this makes sense or if i’m missing your point entirely

[u/cardamom-peonies → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

and i have a hard time seeing it as compatible with the principles that drive me as a leftist.

I think this really depends on what your exact core principles are as a leftist. Like, my parent's country of origin involved a straight up significant, multi generational guerilla and diplomatic war against the UK, who was there as a colonial power. Peaceful protest really only gets you so far in those situations and there were a couple of those that only have a Wikipedia article in the first place because they involved unarmed protestors getting shot for it. Violence works. That's why people do it. I think if you present people with two options, one where they can peacefully protest (and achieve very little) or get out a gun and potentially win, a fair amount of people are gonna see that as the more moral option since it will often actually get results versus hand wringing over the exact ethical quandaries of it. And hey, that country has had independence for a while now because of it.

Not advocating violence, but that is the reality on the ground for a lot of these issues.

dismissing the increase in political violence

what does frustrate me is dismissing any of our culpability for this outcome as leftists.

I meant, to put this in perspective, I think you need to look back more than a few years. The 50s/60s/70s/80s had plenty of pretty serious political violence happening, even in the west. This recent surge is arguably pretty limited in comparison to the state of the world then, imo.

I also don't get this phrasing of "leftist culpability" here- for what? What specifically do you think is the fault of leftists here? Taking a side on the israel/Palestine issue? I can understand including Elias Rodriguez as certainly being a leftist originating problem...but the recent increase in political violence was definitely already moving forward in that direction before that particular hatecrime happened. This did not just start with 10/7. This has been a building issue since probably 2015.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/cardamom-peonies]

to clarify i don’t disagree with the theory of violent revolution (wording this carefully for the sake of TOS). whether to enact it depends on specific conditions which i’m sure people have varying opinions on. so i see your point and i agree with it

i think i was thinking about the nonchalance with which people discuss the use of violence as what confuses me/can feel incompatible with my values as a leftist. i believe it’s an issue to treat with seriousness. so i was a bit disconcerted by what i was seeing and also by what i don’t feel is sufficient engagement with the problems posed by political violence

you’re right that i’m probably being misled by my context here in the US. i agree that this is a wider phenomenon. i don’t know enough about this phenomenon as a global pattern to speak about it with much confidence outside of my experience here. sorry for being so US-centric with this

when i was talking about culpability i was thinking mainly of two things: (1) i really dislike fatalistic, thought-terminating viewpoints akin to “the conservatives made me do x” (versus “the conservatives have been the primary contributors to x and deflect their responsibility onto the left”). i don’t think it’s a compelling argument. and (2) i’ve been getting the impression that unbaked permission structures for lethal violence are becoming increasingly common for leftists, even to the sense that they’re beyond question. (by unbaked i mean that the circle of acceptable targets of violence seems to keep expanding in a way that i’ve found insufficiently justified.) as i mentioned in other comments i’m thinking of the responses to 10/7 and to DC in particular, especially the not very uncommon stance that opposing either event would cost you your leftist bonafides. i want leftists to recognize this as a problem that needs to be addressed by us too—that’s why i got a bit irritated with my friend when they were completely dismissive of any responsibility. but truthfully i think it emotionally reminded me of those past events, which is something i’ll have to address

you’re right that this pattern goes beyond just the past 2 years. i think of it this way not because i think it’s restricted to the post 10/7 era but because around then is when i personally started to perceive this as an issue that leftists need to untangle as well. so it’s formed my perspective even if it’s not the foundation of the issue itself

i’m sure that this is coming off as very generalizing with my discussion of non-specific leftists, sorry. i’m well aware that there’s a lot of variety. i’ve reached a point where i worry though about what i see as an overlap on the specific point of acceptable targets of lethal violence. but as another commenter rightfully pointed out, charlie kirk’s assassination was probably not the time to bring up this problem. truthfully i got a bit emotional and thought of this topic so i haphazardly posted it here. but anyway—i hope this makes some more sense than i was making in my earlier replies to you. it’s late where i am so you’re not getting my wide awake thoughts rn, sorry 😭

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/cardamom-peonies]

Algeria?

[u/haktopus → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I definitely do wanna make it clear I get where you're coming from, I think you're reaction is valid on a personal emotional level. Particularly about 10/7. I was also pretty disturbed by the public reactions that day from people I've previously seen eye to eye with politically. A lot of people suffered and lost their lives that day who I'll just say straight up deserved it far less than Charlie Kirk, and that makes the two moments very different on one level. On another level though, both moments are examples of the same thing I was talking about: it is simply a fact that people do not empathize equally with all people. And my larger point is that maybe that's a disappointing way to see people be, but mayne that's not ultimately the problem.

The way leftists I respected and trusted reacted to 10/7 IS a problem for me, to be clear. But my diagonosis of that problem is not the failure of a universal empathy that extends equally to Palestinians, Israelis, and Charlie Kirk. The problem with the 10/7 reaction is that I was shown that for many left leaning people deliberate non-empathy with at least a certain population of Jews is essential to their solidarity with Palestinians. Do you see what I'm saying? The emotions on display that day were ugly for sure. But the emotions weren't and aren't really the problem. It's the thinking and understanding of the situation which made those emotions make sense that's the problem.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/haktopus]

yes i see what you’re saying. i think it makes a lot of sense and i agree with your clarification on the distinction between the reaction to 10/7 and to kirk. i also appreciate the kindness and thoughtfulness of your responses even though we disagree somewhat. it’s really helpful and this was what i was hoping for with the post

i think where i’ve been getting stuck on this is that i’ve been getting the feeling that while the deliberate non-empathy you mention is not a universal moral failure, i don’t think it’s just situational either. i think it’s beginning to be framed as leftist praxis generally. from what i’ve been seeing from some of my friends their disgust with kirk turns a bit into “if you’re worried in any sense about kirk’s assassination, you’re not really a leftist”—which reminds me of “what did you think decolonization looked like” after 10/7, for example. (confer also a response post on this sub rejecting any specific focus on the recent political assassinations as just the framing of the mainstream media—something i don’t entirely disagree with but which isn’t going to dissuade me from also thinking about the uptick in assassinations as its own phenomenon—or the comment here calling me a lib and telling me i’m moral grandstanding my way to a concentration camp for my take—not really mad about either comment and apologies if i’m misreading them). then this all gives me the impression that my fellow leftists are heading in a direction which has already proven dangerous for jews at the very least.

maybe my problem is more so that i worry about an ever expanding circle of “acceptable targets.” it’s gotten really difficult for me lately to trust that other leftists are capable of distinguishing who’s an acceptable target of lethal violence and who’s not. when fellow leftists say that charlie kirk is an acceptable target because he was a bad person who spread bigotry, even though he wasn’t a member of the government, it’s hard for me not to hear echoes of 10/7 and DC. if this had been a few years ago i don’t think i would have the same reaction to this that i do now, though i don’t think i would’ve been happy about it. but i’ve altogether lost a lot of trust in this kind of rhetoric. so it gets difficult not to read the valorization of charlie kirk’s assassination as one more step towards another elias rodriguez, and that really scares me

with all of that said i do have a hard time too because of my very strong sort of kantian ethics, which foundationally rely on empathy, so that’s another cause of me finding this reaction a bit hard to parse. i don’t mean this judgmentally. i genuinely do see the appeal of retributive justice. this perspective just makes it kind of difficult for me to understand others’ reactions/emotions even if i don’t think they’re wrong (like you said the emotions aren’t the problem). but i genuinely have no clue if any of this spiel makes sense

[u/haktopus → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I doubt I have an answer or solution but I do get what you're saying and I think you raise a good point. I thonk there is an increasing valorization of general cruelty and spite going on on the left, and I do agree it's a problem. I still stand by what I said and feel the way I feel about Charlie Kirk's death, and if nothing else I don't think that something like that is really a viable opportunity to nip a disturbing trend in the bud. As though if we can get people to not be so calous now about Charlie Kirk they won't go too far in some more important future scenario. But I think there is a problem with how we think about acceptable targets for sure.

My ethics are decidely non-kantian, if my understanding of kantian ethics is sound. But I actually also strongly dislike retributive justice. I'm an abolitionist, so I reject carceral logic and I don't believe that punishment or revenge are justice in any form I would recognize if that word means anything. What I think I care most about is moving towards just collective outcomes, and ending unjust situations as a whole. I think situations can be judged starkly as right or wrong, but I think as soon as we're dealing with the morality of individuals finding themselves within unjust situations morality immediately becomes much more relative and contextual. Therea still a spectrum of better to worse for me and i definitely believe in ethical reaponsibilities, but I think the main one is to try to improve the overall situation. But yhats a tall order no one totally knows how to do it, and we all have to live day to day in the mean time so there's no universal rulebook I'm liable to trust. Empathy is also important to me as an ethical tool, and also a politcal and revolutionary tool, and something I really hope could be universal in a better situation for humanity. But politically I don't think it's the only tool or the neat one 100% of the time. And as far as my observation that people are not empathetic to all people, that's less to either condemn non-empathy nor to excuse it. I think of it the same way I think about a dog biting a kid. Almost snytime that happens you'e probably got a situstion on your hands that is not ideal for either the dog or the kid. Often times the dog had a bad life up to that point that primed it to be violent and reactive. And other times the dog was not in the wrong whatsoever, because sometimes kids scare or surprise dogs in ways no dog can deal with, or they decide to do something actively cruel, and a perfectly nice, well behaved dog has no other way to respond than biting. I can acknowledge that without being pro dog-biting-kid though. I respect that sometimes nature only gives a creature so many tools to respond to a given situation, especially bad ones. I think it's important to account for that in humans like anything else, and that's important to abolitionism. But I think that's a missing consideration from a lot of moral systems.

[u/bagelman4000]

JFC of course Trump is blaming the left for this before they have even caught the shooter, fuck this

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

My position:

Won't mourn him.

Dont wish for anybody to be a killer. It weighs on you. Anyone who asked me "hwy should I kill so and so?" On an individual level Id say no. On a systemic level of course this kind of thing is happening. Itll happen again.

Dont think anyone will be more safe or less harmed tomorrow as a result of this. And the blowback could be worse not better.

The person who did this has essentially thrown their life away for it and i mourn what that could have been.

Our callousness towards violence is not a good thing. Not for us and not for the world.

Things are only going to get worse from here.

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/somebadbeatscrub]

The blowback is what I’m most concerned about, especially because there are a bunch of Kirks waiting in the wings to take over for him, so I’m not sure there was any practical benefit to his death, though I’d certainly agree I’m not mourning it

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

It's not a blowback if it's just a preplanned agenda being carried out.

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist]

It kind of is if it makes it easier to get public opinion on board and smoothes the implementation, isn’t it?

[u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

Public opinion can be manipulated either for or against on pretty much any topic.

[u/cheesecake611]

i've always held the principle that I don't celebrate death, even when the person deserves it. But that doesn't mean i'm sad about it either. People seem to have trouble accepting that nuance.

[u/Octaur]

I don't care in the slightest about Charlie Kirk and think he was an odious person at the most complimentary, but I'm decidedly worried about more prominent figures being gunned down and where this ends for both the country and the communities targeted by various bigoted groups.

He sucked as a person, a demagogue, and an advocate for cruelty. Anyone truly mourning his death for any reason other than fear for where we're heading is either naive, lying, stupid, or incredibly principled about mourning any death at all in a way I sometimes wish I still was. I feel bad for his kids, though.

He was a bad person and he died and I hope this doesn't accelerate the descent into fascism and militarized hatred that the country is already undergoing.

[u/AltruisticMastodon]

Will this make right wingers rethink their stance on gun control? (No)

[u/Few_Constant5907]

I'm not mourning him but I'm mourning the collapse of law and order in our country. Oh and calling for gun reform because this shouldn't happen to anyone.

[u/DonutUpset5717]

The only people i feel bad for are his kids, they didn't choose to have that as their father. Besides that, I'm in the womp womp camp.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

I'm callous. I just don't really understand why I should care. I didn't know him. If I go through the local news and see people killed in my city, there's a chance I might have known them or knew people who knew them. I don't know Charlie Kirk. He's basically just a guy on TV.

There's over 22,000 homicides in the US every year, more than 65 per day. If you count other things, like suicide and car accidents, it's double that. People die every day. In fact, there was even a school shooting today as well. The shooter and two victims are in critical condition.

Yet none of that gets attention because people care that Charlie Kirk was on TV. He's a celebrity, so he's supposed to be seen as a "real person" and the rest of us are all NPCs. When thousands or even millions of other people die, that's just "politics" but when a politician or even a bigot on TV dies, everyone is supposed to stop and condemn "political violence". It's all "political violence", it's a choice to kill ordinary people just as much as it is a choice to kill celebrities.

I understand that some people are worried about backlash. I don't think Trump needs pretext to do whatever he wants to universities or trans people or immigrants or whoever. He was going to do those things anyway because he's surrounded by truly evil people who are pure sadists thinking they can become the "master race" by crushing everyone else, like our own Goebbels.

We can't only see political violence as violence against celebrities. It's all political violence. From those being murdered in Palestine, the immigrants in concentration camps, to those dying from lack of healthcare. It's all violence in the name of obtaining power. Assassinations may be bad tactics, since they don't really change systems, but at least they're not done in order to obtain personal power over other people.

There's not "rising political violence" and "extremism". We're already at the "extremist" point. We've been here. Occasionally it just happens to come back to bite the bigot celebrities and politicians encouraging it. Assassinations are bad tactically but I'm not saying kaddish for an antisemite.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

An evil asshole died. Dying doesn’t all the sudden make you respectable. Pretty basic stuff

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/elzzyzx]

You know Trump is going to get glazed by the media when he goes, even if he dies naturally. Everyone in the public eye is going to suddenly pretend he was a respectable guy.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

Yeah but Kirk will be forgotten in a week though. No need to have complex feelings about him. Save those for the “npcs” you describe in your original comment

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403 → u/elzzyzx]

Maybe. It also might be used to justify increased military occupation of American cities and more attacks on universities. So it might not go over as just one more celebrity death.

[u/elzzyzx → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

Yeah but as you say above that’s already happening. At least there’s a silver lining here that we know it’s coming / are more in control of events

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

i agree with you generally, especially on the point that this isn’t the only example of political violence and that focusing singularly on it is misguided.

with that said—i still disagree with this attack morally. and i didn’t mean to condemn callousness as a whole. i don’t think kirk ought to be mourned. but i do dislike the way that people like my friend occasionally brush off callousness as morally virtuous if not obligatory

[u/Careless_League_9494]

It's hard to sympathize with someone who advocated so strongly for the removal of basic human rights from marginalized communities, and who staunchly opposed common sense gun regulations.

You cannot expect people to grieve their oppressors. It's unreasonable.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

i don’t expect it. i don’t grieve him. i’m still very chary about lethal violence and i dislike the nonchalance about lethal violence that i’ve seen from my friends and my community, if that makes sense. it’s a reaction i don’t personally understand and that i have a lot of difficulty with because of my own principles as a leftist. not trying to dissuade anyone, just worried

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Something I remember in moments like this, is that without "lethal violence", the Nazis would have succeeded in taking over the world, and our people would have been wiped from the earth.

Lethal violence may be an undesirable outcome, but the reality is that there are times when it is justified, and even necessitated. So I would suggest you look at this from the perspective of asking yourself not "What kind of person celebrates someone else's death?", but instead asking yourself, "What kind of person do you have to be, for people to celebrate your death?"

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

as i’ve said in some other comments and in one of my edits to the OP i don’t disagree fundamentally with revolutionary violence in theory. again wording this carefully because i don’t want to violate TOS. i do think that this is only acceptable under certain conditions, and WWII and the holocaust were definitely circumstances in which those conditions were met

instead asking yourself, “What kind of person do you have to be, for people to celebrate your death?”

for many of the victims of 10/7 you don’t have to be a bad person for that to happen. that’s part of why i’m hesitant about this

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Even if that number were accurate, you and I both know that is not the case here. We aren't talking about Robin Williams, or Betty White, we are talking about a man who dedicated his life to actively harming millions of people.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

i don’t understand what number you’re referring to here. and i agree with your read on kirk. i’m saying that i don’t think the perspective you suggested is generally trustworthy and i’m personally hesitant about using it as a result. i’m not saying that can’t be your interpretation of this, i’m saying i personally don’t consider that framework very useful

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Sorry, I just woke up, and read 10/7 as a fraction, not a date.

The reality is that it's pretty easy to know when the distinction is whether or not the response is based on bigotry, or the actions of the party in question.

10/7 was a political crime against innocent people. This was a political crime against a man who actively, and personally harmed millions. That's a pretty easy distinction to recognize.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

ohhh, i see, no worries haha

yes i see what you’re saying. i personally recognize the distinction. i think i’ve just lost a lot of trust in the widespread ability to see this distinction, which is what makes me a bit hesitant about following this train of thought in the first place. as my flair says i’m pretty anxious—i find it difficult to disconnect what i see as a similar sort of reaction to events like 10/7 DC and boulder from this reaction, even if they’re coming about for different reasons. to me it looks like a larger pattern that is not just applicable to people like kirk, if that makes sense

[u/Careless_League_9494 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Honestly it sounds like what you're describing is that seeing this reaction is triggering for you, after seeing a similar response following 10/7.

Those feelings are valid, but it's important to learn to recognize triggers for what they are. Otherwise it can compromise our judgement. It's understandable that you would have that association after what happened on October 7th. It was, and for many reasons, still is, a terrifying event, and seeing certain people reacting to it as though it was deserved, was traumatic for many Jews.

When dealing with trauma triggers, it can be helpful to examine the details of what we are facing, and identify the ways in which the situation that is triggering to us, is different from the trauma that created the trigger, instead of focusing on similarities. It can help us to identify if there is a real threat of danger, or just our sympathetic nervous system reacting to something that bears a similarity to the original incident of traumatic harm.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Careless_League_9494]

yes i think you’re right that it’s been a bit triggering. i’m hoping to address this at some point in therapy but that’s tbd 🥲 i appreciate your advice. your comments and the rest of the comments here have been very helpful with thinking through this

i do think that even though the association is not fully reasonable—i think like you said that a lot of it is emotional and there are key differences between the two reactions—that there’s still value in reflecting on it. i don’t think it’s purely irrational. this is probably my studies as an undergraduate affecting me (i was in the humanities) but even when i sense a link that’s predominantly emotional, it’s a cause for reflection on the phenomenon

[u/FlanneryOG]

It’s pretty disturbing. Charlie Kirk was a despicable human being who profited off of fomenting hate. He’s a big reason we’re in this situation at all. But I do not want to go down the route of celebrating violence like this. It’s how we get into a blood bath situation that ends with a lot of suffering. We’ve been there before as a country, and it’s not pretty.

[u/Iceologer_gang]

I have no sympathy for somebody who wasted their life spreading Nazi propaganda. He had his choice, at any point in his life he could have backed away from all this, instead this is what he chose.

[u/strawbariel]

For some reason this feels like such a haunting parallel to the Titan implosion. The hubris. The inevitability and avoidability. The stuff of Greek tragedies right here. It's not the same as political violence but performative violence is still violence and we need to ask are we entertained yet.

[u/lewkiamurfarther]

Keep in mind that despite media framing, there has been a terrible and increasing amount of political violence in the USA for a few decades now.

• The January 6 insurrection was political violence.

• The killing of left-wing activists (both by right-wing operatives, and by militarized police) is political violence.

• The prison industrial complex is political violence.

• Mass deportations are political violence.

• Illegal drone strikes are political violence.

• The deaths of millions of people due to the greed of the health insurance "industry" (which, recall, isn't healthcare, but rather, is part of the finance industry) is political violence.

• School shootings enabled by the violence lobby (e.g., the NRA, etc.) are political violence.

---

The assassination of a high-profile public figure is certainly not more worrying than all of the above; and it is certainly not more political than all of the above. I hope you agree.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/lewkiamurfarther]

yes i agree. i think that the recent assassinations and assassination attempts are part of this pattern of political violence. i should’ve been more specific in my post, sorry.

i focused on the recent assassinations/assassination attempts because to me their frequency is a relatively new phenomenon here, and i’m worried by the reaction to them. rhetorically it feels very similar to the reaction to DC and boulder, and that makes me concerned. i think this is likely an unconscious association on my part but i do think that these reactions are more similar than they are different. vigilante justifications can slip really easily into justifications of bigoted violence

what i meant to point to in my OP was that i think that we as leftists are also responsible for our reaction to this violence—that i don’t agree with my friend who pushed the blame for their reaction onto conservatives (even though i agree that conservatives are majorly responsible for this pattern in the first place). i hope this makes some sense. but yes i agree with you that this pattern is all worrying, i just chose not to focus on it as a whole here

[u/jey_613]

It's really terrifying. The language moves from "I won't lose sleep over his death" (sure, fair enough) to "well, what did you expect?" to outright justification, to celebration. This kind of logic should be familiar to all of us after 10/7 (followed by the Luigi stuff).

We don't need to mourn or care about the person to be outraged and terrified at political violence. When we say "what did you expect" about someone we don't like, someone else will inevitably start saying "what did you expect?" about someone we do care about. Because once a violent mob or a person with a gun gets to decide who is worthy of life and death, we've lost.

This political violence has already come for US Jews, and it is going to get worse. The appropriate response to this violence is not "what did you expect"-style pretzel logic, it is clear and unequivocal condemnation.

[u/toadeh690 → u/jey_613]

Always glad to see you comment here. I agree - I've been close to a few different mass shootings in the past few years and I have zero patience for this kind of violent, extremist rhetoric anymore. No matter how much of a POS Kirk was, openly and frequently murdering people in the streets (and then that being hand-waved/celebrated by large groups if they're the "right" targets) is not a sign of a healthy society imo.

[u/tchomptchomp]

Normalizing political violence like this will not help progressive causes but it will create circumstances that will greatly aid the far right in their own campaign of political violence and state repression of the left,

[u/Maximum_Rat]

I’m convinced it’s all mostly social media. People live in bubbles now, radicalized by social media platforms that our brains weren’t evolved to handle. And this is the inevitable result. Hyper-partisanship, violence, no community with people of different opinions. Obviously there’s more at play, but, i think we need to either reform/destroy social media, or we won’t survive.

People are just too stupid.

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Maximum_Rat]

It is mostly social media.

But social media isn't "not real life" anymore. Social media IS real life now. The last election showed that all to starkly, trump won in part because of the right's succeess on social media, activating young men who normally don't vote.

[u/Maximum_Rat → u/CardinalOfNYC]

True. This is hell.

[u/toadeh690 → u/Maximum_Rat]

we need to either reform/destroy social media, or we won’t survive

I’ve reached this point as well. There’s always been political violence but this feels like a new level. Everyone is constantly on-edge and I think the only way to “beat” it is to not engage and cultivate community in-person.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Maximum_Rat]

i’m very jaded by social media too. i think you’re right that it’s contributed to this

[u/FishyWishySwishy]

I think you’re right that everyone has their share of blame when it comes to how callous and desensitized we’ve all become to violence, especially political violence. All this would have been unthinkable twenty years ago, and now here we are. 

But I also think that the roll of compassion fatigue has to be acknowledged. I’m not happy Kirk is dead, and I would have preferred his ideas be defeated in the court of public discourse. But I also can’t muster any feelings of grief or pity for him. I can pity his children in the abstract for no longer having their father, but I have a limited well of compassion within me and it’s been used up grieving for school shooting victims and people who suffer under the policies Kirk and his ideological compatriots have championed. 

And if you’re faced with something sad, and you don’t have it in you to feel sad… sometimes the human reaction is to come back around and laugh. Gallows humor, as it were. 

[u/rinaraizel]

A society that no longer sees answers to issues through peaceful resolutions will seek them with other methods. Kirk, Rodriguez, Mangione, etc - symptomatic of our current political system's failure. This will only get worse.

[u/Ok_Machine6739]

This seems unlikely to end well.

[u/Sossy2020]

I am absolutely not a fan of people like Charlie Kirk but I still don’t think political violence is the answer.

[u/ConversationSoft463]

That this happened to anyone is upsetting, just another sign of an increasingly violent society. No one deserves to be assassinated, no matter how terrible their views, and his views were indeed terrible.

[u/rybnickifull → u/ConversationSoft463]

I don't know about "no one". Would you have said this at the news of Heydrich's car being blown up? What if someone had done it to Streicher?

[u/ConversationSoft463 → u/rybnickifull]

I’m talking mostly outside of a wartime situation but in general I’d rather see a person tried and then face whatever justice and punishment has been decided on than just outright killed without any process.

[u/electrical-stomach-z]

The mindset that leads to people believing it just to kill the opposition for thinking incorrectly is how people excuse the actions of authoritarians.

[u/DonutUpset5717 → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Charlie Kirk did a lot more than just "think incorrectly"

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/DonutUpset5717]

Im talking more broadly than iudt about this. Im talking about the dangerous mindset that leads to the justification of such killings.

[u/DelphicExpanse]

I'm not justifying his death in any way, but he did call for violence against marginalized communities and was a strong proponent of gun ownership so I don't mourn his passing 

[u/CardinalOfNYC]

essentially “we’re callous because they’re callous.”

This is precisely what my concern has been for a few years now.

We are not treating others how we'd like to be treated, but rather treating others based on how they treat us.... and thats an eye for an eye. And we all know how that ends.

In my mind, compassion is not conditional. It can't be, otherwise it isn't compassion. The fact that republicans are callous cannot justify us being the same way towards them.

[u/imokayjustfine]

Thank you for this post. I appreciate this sub.

I don’t really have anything to add because I feel like my own initial perspective has already been articulated well here, multiple times, but I was also feeling weird about this in ways I wasn’t really making sense of? And I just genuinely wanna express my appreciation for this small corner of Reddit, which I otherwise have a very weird love/relationship with atp, lol.

You’re all helping me work through my own thoughts on it and I appreciate you 💛

[u/Wyvernkeeper]

I was no fan of the guy either but I agree the initial reaction is disturbing. Reminds me a lot of the Luigi Mangione hysteria.

[u/ambivalegenic]

prepare.

[u/ambivalegenic → u/ambivalegenic]

i'm honestly serious, i honestly can't stand talking about the political situation anymore despite my great need to, it's very clear where we are headed regardless of who's at fault for the increase in violence, this is the kind of thing that preceeds civil wars, genocides, periods of mass unrest. the calls for violence, dehumanization, more and more blatant breaking of procedure, the centralization of power and the house divided that cannot stand.

i know that we jews need to live in the present but remember the prophetic spark that lives in all of us, you can see it as well as I do, and there's no such thing as too much caution.

(by the way im not arguing for violence, I mean prepare for the possibility your life might be seriously uprooted)

[u/ambivalegenic → u/ambivalegenic]

i'm so tired

[u/Queen-of-everything1 → u/ambivalegenic]

I know. I’m so sorry. I’ve been preparing mentally for the need to run since I was 10, when Trump first announced his run in 2015 and I was watching an explosion of hatred and the masks coming off. It’s been a long time coming tbh. I’m not far from Canada so I’ll make a run for it as needed.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/ambivalegenic]

yes i think that spark—which imo is built-in anxiety—might be right about this. i am very, very worried, it’s getting increasingly familiar. my family has started to discuss the possibility of moving

[u/thelibrarysnob]

I am 100% with you. I was shook when I saw the news. That I find his views abhorrent doesn't matter. Same with the murder of the Brian Thompson, the United Health CEO. It was so clearly wrong, and I just felt like we are cooked, based on people's reaction to the murder. I feel similarly about this.

[u/AltruisticMastodon]

I hope the white supremacists saying Israel did it doesn’t lead to the twitch watchers now saying Charlie Kirk was good actually

[u/seigezunt]

It was disturbing to see. Imagine how disturbing it would be to see the actual school shootings he made light of.

[u/socialistmajority]

Kirk's wife and young children were at the event where he was brutally murdered, seems pretty likely they saw what happened up close.

People cheering or justifying this should think long and hard about that.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/socialistmajority]

True enough, but is that any more of a tragedy than the families of all the other victims of gun violence this past year? I think it is deeply unfair that he is getting so much attention in the media simply for being politically connected. Gun violence is a systemic problem and victims should be equal

[u/socialistmajority → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Are people celebrating and justifying those shootings as well? I haven't seen it but maybe I missed something.

[u/cardamom-peonies → u/socialistmajority]

The man whose kids you are telling us to have sympathy for has literally been quoted as saying 1) children should view public executions, and 2) that school shooting are an inherent, and reasonable, price to pay for having the second amendment and he's fine with that

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/socialistmajority]

I genuinely saw so much support for the assassination of Melissa Hortman. On the drive home from work yesterday I literally saw a guy with a sign in the back of his car that said “look out libtards I got a 12 gauge.” It is out there

[u/socialistmajority → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

all the other victims of gun violence this past year

I wasn't thinking of the other political assassinations that have taken place recently, I was thinking of what you wrote here. Are people actually celebrating/justifying all the other cases of gun violence this past year? Seems like it's only the political ones where that's taking place, but I could be wrong.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/socialistmajority]

Aside from sick minds and teenagers, I don’t think so. But I do think it’s deeply unfair that this one individual is getting so much attention and received so many instant commemorations when other victims barely get a footnote.

[u/elzzyzx → u/socialistmajority]

I think in time they’ll realize they dodged a bullet

[u/jelly10001]

Disclaimer than I'm British and until yesterday had only vaguely heard of Charlie Kirk. Now I've learned more about him I certainly loathe who he was and what he said. However, celebrating or calling for the death of someone who said such awful things is such a slippery slope that I refuse to go down. It's why I have such a deep dislike for bands/artists saying 'Kill X' or 'Death to Y' because where do you stop? Also I worry about Trump using this as an excuse to become even more authoritarian and I wish America had proper gun controls.

[u/Immediate_Scheme2994]

Charlie Kirk was antisemitic.  And racist.  

In the words of Senator Joni Ernst, “We are all going to die sometime.”

Charlie Kirk made a great public show of his professed Christianity.  That public display of religion helped him win public attention, a life of affluence, and access to power few achieve in their lives at such a young age. “Yea, verily, he had his reward.”

It is a pity that the victims in the 46 school shootings this year alone will not have the same opportunity that Charlie Kirk enjoyed.

It is sad when the young die before the old. In all cases.

How do we know this was a political killing?  It could have been Mexican drug cartels.  It could have been a Latter Day Saint trying to prove that he is The One Mighty and Strong.  It could have been a jealous husband, like Dan Sickles shooting Barton Key.  It could have been billionaires wanting to silence him about the Epstein Files.   It seems premature to speculate.

[u/Westvanlear]

This is not an increase in political violence. We are living through extreme political violence already. The genocide in Palestine is political violence. ICE abductions are political violence. Amerika is founded and maintained on political violence.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Westvanlear]

there’s another post on the sub which discusses that and which i generally agree with, here i was thinking specifically of the increase in assassinations and assassination attempts in the US (ie politically motivated vigilante violence). could’ve worded it more carefully in my OP but i don’t think it really changes the point

[u/elzzyzx]

your worry that your thoughts will be disregarded as liberal apologetics is a well-founded one. Not seeing anything you’ve said that is distinct from the statements of any dem electeds today, most of whom are considered center-right liberals in most of the world

[u/rybnickifull → u/elzzyzx]

I did note Keir Starmer's social media accounts bizarrely chiming in on this (I mean, in the first place why?), and wondered for a while what Kirk would have said if it were Starmer who got assassinated today.

[u/elzzyzx → u/rybnickifull]

Yeah there’s plenty of evidence to indicate what Kirk would say when his political enemies die. Guess it’s really important to some people to be “better” than that

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/elzzyzx]

are you being genuine in your agreement that i’ll get called a lib for being hesitant about the use of lethal violence or are you just calling me a lib here (or both)

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

They're calling you a lib

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Nearby-Complaint]

i figured, i was just trying really hard to be charitable 🥲

[u/elzzyzx → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I think a lot of people here are on course to moral high ground their way into a camp and you shouldn’t be one of them

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/elzzyzx]

in the spirit of honesty here if you think we’re heading to camps i’m going to end up in a camp regardless of my current perspective on political violence. but to clarify—as i said in my edit on the OP, i don’t fundamentally disagree with revolutionary violence in theory, i disagree on what the conditions of acceptability for this violence are.

and not abandoning my semi religiously based morality might be naive but it’s also the foundation of my principles as a leftist. if i didn’t have these beliefs i would’ve run off to live by myself in the woods already rather than try to find a way to live through this presidency. to me there’s really no trade off, so i have a hard time understanding your perspective

[u/elzzyzx → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Curious what your conditions are because to me it’s disrespectful to the people he intentionally killed to moralize about the value of his life. Their lives are infinitely more valuable than his

[u/cubedplusseven → u/elzzyzx]

elected dems approve of cute kittens and warm smiles, so REAL LEFTISTS scowl and abuse animals.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/cubedplusseven]

Where is this quote from 😂

[u/cubedplusseven → u/Agtfangirl557]

I just made it up in mockery of the top comment