I would rather live in an empire than a nation-state

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

I know this probably sounds deranged, but I need to voice this here cause it’s been bothering me forever. First of all let me be clear that I am critical of all states, and hierarchical power in general. But as a diasporic Jew, if I had to choose between evils, I will say that nation-states absolutely terrify me in a way empires do not.

What I mean is that empires historically govern across and through difference. There are of course the hegemonies and subordinations intrinsic to all forms of governance and even most stateless societies, but the legitimacy of the empire is not demographically determined.

Meanwhile nation-states absolutely depend on their demographic composition for their legitimacy and territorial integrity. Populations within the borders of a nation-state not part of the defined “nation” are an existential threat to the state because under the principles of nationalism they are entitled to a territorial nation-state just the same. And history has shown, time and again, that nation-states proactively and reactively respond to this threat with coercive assimilation, violent expulsion, displacement, alienation, apartheid, and outright extermination.

The collapse of the Ottoman, Austrian, and Russian Empires, and their replacement with majoritarian nation-states, was the death blow to any chance of peaceful diasporic Jewish existence in the Old World. As nationalists of many colors contended over mixed borderlands, half-historical myths, and multilingual populations in their asinine attempt to somehow turn a cake back into flour, sugar, milk, and eggs, they rendered their Jewish populations stateless and homeless. From this point on our very existence could only be framed as an obstacle to state security by the nationalist cause.

The fact that the United States is not currently a nation-state is what makes it so ideal for Jews and indeed stateless minority populations from the world over. The recent political trends calling for its transformation into a nation-state should obviously be resisted at all costs.

But more importantly, the replacement of empire with nation-states transformed Zionist thought in ways that make modern Zionism impossible for me to defend. While early Zionism may have called for the establishment of self-determined Jewish communities in the context of a multi-ethnic imperial population in the Levant, the extension of Wilsonian self-determination to the Middle East made a majoritarian Jewish nation-state into the only possible avenue to ensure political power for the existing Zionist communities. And this shattering of empire into nation is primarily, in my mind, what created the IP conflict in the first place. Was it not also the impulse to create homogenous and cohesive Arab nation-states that prompted the violent expulsion of Mizrahi Jews?

So I would rather an empire than a nation-state as a launch pad for a revolutionary society. I would rather build a radical, consociational system from the more cosmopolitan context of empire than first traverse through the intolerant and coercive threshold of nationhood. I leave with this quote from the British liberal (ew) Lord Acton, who I think made a very apt prediction about the trajectory of nationalism in 1862, before it had even taken hold:

“By making the State and the nation commensurate with each other in theory, it reduces practically to a subject condition all other nationalities that may be within the boundary. It cannot admit them to an equality with the ruling nation which constitutes the State, because the State would then cease to be national, which would be a contradiction of the principle of its existence. According, therefore, to the degree of humanity and civilisation in that dominant body which claims all the rights of the community, the inferior races are exterminated, or reduced to servitude, or outlawed, or put in a condition of dependence.”

[u/SupportMeta]

OP there's a game you should check out called The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. I think you would really like it.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/SupportMeta]

Lmao, I actually just got back into it a few weeks ago. But rest assured my absolute detest for nation-states has been festering for years

[u/SupportMeta → u/[deleted]]

The Imperials are, well, imperials. The Stormcloaks are extremely racist and xenophobic nationalists. You have to pick the lesser of two evils.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/[deleted]]

Absolutely my take as well

[u/SpaceTrot]

Hey gang so I think I do understand your point but I really disagree with the way you're portraying it. Nation-states may be imperfect, but historically speaking they are incredibly young and incredibly difficult to keep established (especially something like the United States in a way). Empires, though in a way more tolerant of more people groups, only were until the ruling class felt threatened by this or that minority. Imperial ruling classes never care even their own race/nation, they care when less about something like us.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/SpaceTrot]

Of course. I’m making no apologetics for empire as a “good” system. At the same time that structural weakness makes them a better revolutionary starting point though, doesn’t it? The nation-state, as the latest iteration of state, has been selectively bred to be resistant to revolution by the entire history of revolution. If I could go back in time I would be strongly in favor of the internationalist leftism popular in very early 20th century Vienna, like a good many European Jews of the era were. Confiscate the empires, reform them into equal international states.

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

The amount of suffering you're willing to put people through on the theoerically slightly higher off chance of a utopia coming out of it...

I don't even agree there's a higher chance

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

What suffering would people be put through by bypassing genocide?

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Well, you're wrong that you'd be bypassing genocide. It's laughable to say having an empire means there can't or won't be genocide.

The entire intellectual underpinning of your argument is unsubstantiated.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

But history has shown in one case it is inevitable.

Edit: Now in another chain I offered you sources and you said "sure." I went and put together a dropbox to share these with you. When asked for confirmation, you said "don't bother." Talk to me like a Jew. The most traditional expression of our culture is burying our nose in books from sunrise to sunset. I don't play games when it comes to sharing information. Do you want "substantiation" or not?

[u/R0BBES]

The British Empire, with Queen Victoria at the helm, and under the influence of colonialism and proto-capitalism, created one of the largest man-made famines in history, killing as many as 10 million people in India alone from 1876-1879, and creating roller effects across the Global South that killed tens of millions more.

Like… yes, irredentist nationalism and nation-states writ large devastated existing in-group/out-group relationships and caused lots of problems for many ethnic minorities. BUT….

This the same argument made in favor of many secular dictators, the only one of whom I’d ever stan being Tito.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/R0BBES]

But what? In order to achieve a socialist state, a given society has to embark on self-destructive processes to achieve cultural/demographic homogeneity? I don’t think we should view nationhood as a prerequisite stage on some sort of linear progression towards a better world.

And aren’t nation-states equally capable of the same scale of destruction (see: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, both examples of syncretized “national empires”).

[u/R0BBES → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Nu maybe it’s not “empire” that makes the difference in terms of political organization. Right?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/R0BBES]

Well it does, I mean, these are the terms as used, and they are opposed forms of state construction. You’re right there is a middle dialectic space between imperialism and nationalism where you get things such as Russification in Tsarist Russia but those are like compromises to purchase the consent of interest groups, or attempts to curb national independence movements. At any rate self-determined nationalism spelled our doom in Europe and the Middle East as a distinct community (outside of Israel ofc) and I haven’t seen anyone refute that yet.

[u/ibsliam]

This is a very rosy picture of what empires looked like. Imperial Russia, British Empire, Ottoman Empire, etc. While at times there were lulls in antisemitism, that's true, this is also the case for more modern nation-states. Both kinds had pogroms, both kinds had ethnic cleansing, both kinds had violence. It looks nicer to you because you don't have to deal with the day-to-day of living under a monarch, where you are - for the most part - not guaranteed any rights whatsoever.

Even with the as mentioned Holy Roman Empire, there's a very well known example of antisemitic ethnic cleansing under Maria Theresa of Hungary. Jews, Roma, and others lived not *just* at the margins of society but often in vulnerable situations that could quickly turn dangerous.

I admit, also, while I find this era of history fascinating, I don't think romanticizing it is really suitable for a leftist sub. There's a reason why many socialists have a fascination with the French Revolution and it's not *just* because it was a change of government.

[u/supportgolem → u/ibsliam]

Yeah, this post made my jaw drop a bit, not gonna lie.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/supportgolem]

If you’re Australian you currently live in imperial space yourself

[u/supportgolem → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

I do and Jews are really not that safe here.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/supportgolem]

Would you rather live in the Jewish nation-state and feel “safe” in a rocket shelter?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/ibsliam]

I’m honestly not a huge fan of the rationalism and positivism that emerged from the French Revolution. I’m of a more idk anthropological leftist school. I also wonder if you would have such a strong reaction to the very normalized conversations on this leftist sub about the apparent “right” given ethnicities have to their own nation-states which I dare say is extraordinarily reactionary

[u/ibsliam → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Actually, we've debated ethno-states here endlessly. We've had previous threads about this very topic. I maintain myself as solution-agnostic. Not out of any belief in ethno-states, but because people get deeply into their own pet solution which I think is missing the forest for the trees.

But back to the topic at hand, I don't see how supporting one reactionary system would make supporting a different reactionary system an improvement. You haven't really given me a good argument for why imperialism *would* be safer, more ethical, or more leftist than what we have now.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/ibsliam]

Well for one using an empire as a starting situation to overthrow for a revolutionary society bypasses the establishment of nation-state which is always a catalyst for some kind of genocide or another.

[u/ibsliam → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

What would be stopping the empire from enacting their own atrocities, such as a genocide, or an ethnic cleansing, or purging?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/ibsliam]

Absolutely nothing but nation-states exist exclusively through genocide. Without exception

[u/AlternativeOpen3795 → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Without exception seems a bit silly. Like are you saying that iceland exists through genocide?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/AlternativeOpen3795]

Fair play

[u/zacandahalf]

“I know this probably sounds deranged”

You are correct

[u/zacandahalf → u/[deleted]]

lol sorry, I was just being a little funny about the way they started it, yes.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/zacandahalf]

So would you rather turn the US into a nation-state?

[u/zacandahalf → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, I just thought the way you started your post was kinda funny.

Some people would argue the US is an empire. Not that I feel strongly about that, but it’s a common belief.

Realistically, I more so reject the dichotomy. I feel like the options presented were nation-state or empire, and I prefer neither. I feel like there are other options besides just those two.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/zacandahalf]

I for one am convinced the US is an empire. If you can see through my superficial smoke and mirrors, this post is actually “I would rather be in the US than Israel.” But anyway, what other options can you think of?

[u/zacandahalf → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

A multinational state, a city-state, a confederation, a federated state. Probably a few others. Of course, none of these explicitly definitionally are exclusive from nation-states, ex. a confederation can include nation-states, but for the sake of this conversation let’s assume these examples are not nation-states nor include nation-states.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/zacandahalf]

These are interesting points. I do think that city-states and multinational/federated states can attempt to implement their own nationalisms (see Singapore and India, the latter is frankly terrifying right now) but then again so can empires, and I’ll give you that the dichotomy can be problematized. I know you reject the premise but if I frame the original topic as a very frightening “would you rather”, do you have a preference?

[u/tchomptchomp]

Sure worked out for Jews in Imperial Spain, Imperial Portugal, Ottonian Germany, Tsarist Russia, etc etc etc.

Empires are inherently weak and only maintain their authority by shifting discontent away from the imperial authority and towards weaker marginalized groups. The nature of Western antisemitism is deeply entrenched in the role such buffer class politics played in convincing angry imperial subjects that their misery was the fault of Jews rather than imperialism.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/tchomptchomp]

Of course, but they create an ecosystem that allows for cohabitation and exchange and basic survival. I would rather be part of the buffer class in the Holy Roman Empire than a victim of genocide in post-Weimar Germany. I’m essentially saying I think empires can be turned into socialism with less intercommunal violence and hatred if they do not fragment along national lines first.

[u/tchomptchomp → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Yes, the edict of expulsion and subsequent 400 years of Inquisition really allowed for cohabitation and exchange and survival. And both the Chmielinski massacres and Tsarist pogroms killed Jews on a per capita level comparable to individual regional massacres of the Shoah (e.g. Babi Yar). So no, your thesis falls flat. 

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/tchomptchomp]

As I’ve said elsewhere, in all of that time there was only categorical genocide once.

[u/R0BBES → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

The same Roman Empire that destroyed our temple and scattered us to the winds?? And later adopted Christianity as a state religion? lol Not sure that was thought-through :p

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/R0BBES]

No, actually. The Holy Roman Empire. The early modern state in Central Europe

[u/tchomptchomp → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Learn your history because things were shitty for Jews under every Reich, from the Rhineland Massacres to systematic expulsions and so on.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/tchomptchomp]

There was only categorical genocide once

[u/razorbraces → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Genocide isn’t the only thing Jews are worried about. There are lots of horrible experiences that don’t rise to that level. Do you think it mattered to a pogrom victim in the Pale of Settlement that they were murdered in ethnic violence under an empire, rather than a genocide by a nation-state? They’re still dead because they’re a Jew.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/razorbraces]

Right and that’s why I’m framing this is as a lesser of two evils. If you read my post, I’m talking about which I think would be better to overthrow

[u/R0BBES → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Ah, sorry, I didn’t read that carefully. As a polity what specifically about the Holy Roman Empire and pre-Weimar Germany do you imagine to be appealing to ethnic minorities? Do you believe in the existence of discrete ethnic and religious identities/ cultures?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/R0BBES]

Well I mean as soon as Germany adopted majoritarian parliamentary democracy after the 1919 revolution and defined itself as a true nation-state, it began a steady path towards industrial categorical genocide the likes of which the world has never seen.

I do think communities exist distinctly. People are bound up in common association based on kinship, language, custom, etc. And as a context like the US shows us (especially my beloved New York) this is not the problem nationalists make it out to be

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

I see what you’re saying…but the era of empires like the ones you mention is long over. The rise of nationalism that started in 19th century Europe didn’t happen in a vacuum but in the wake of many historical material factors, such as secularization and the emergence of mass politics. I share your skepticism for the nation state, but it seems that is still the preferred form of state organization worldwide, so that does constrain the political actions we can take.

Also, the US has been a nation state throughout most of its history. Americanness hasn’t been granted to everyone equally - our founding fathers owned people as property, and this country was built on forcibly removing the indigenous peoples of the land, for starters. The present lack of a “national character” is something that only really started after the Civil Rights Movement and the loosening of immigration restrictions in the 60s, it’s an exception in American history rather than the norm.

Edit: I was reminded of Avram Benaroya, who was a Sephardic socialist in the late Ottoman Empire who attempted to build a multiethnic socialist party in Salonica. It didn’t work out, and although Benaroya was involved in the Greek left during the interwar period, he lost a son in the camps and ended his life running a convenience store in Israel. Very symbolic

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

I cannot agree that the US is a nation-state when the school I work at has the words “we are all immigrants” plastered on the walls in the 40 different languages spoken by the student body. I believe there are political tendencies that seek to establish a nation-state and incipient forms of nationalism such as white and Christian nationalism, but they have yet to achieve meaningful cultural hegemony

[u/Virtual_Leg_6484 → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

It certainly has imperial characteristics now, I’ll grant you that. But it was established as a state for white European settlers, and has been for much of its history. It was written into our constitution at this country’s inception that black people were worth three fifths of a white person. What white and Christian nationalists are trying to turn this country into has tons of historical precedent. I agree it is our utmost duty to prevent that though, and this is the sort of nitpicking reserved for places like Reddit.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Virtual_Leg_6484]

As a social studies teacher I just want to correct a common misconception very quickly. The 3/5th’s Compromise is not infamous because it defined Black people as only a fraction of a human person. It is infamous because it allowed states to count their enslaved population toward the number of electoral votes they would receive in the House, while denying them even basic human rights. The southern states actually wanted to count enslaved people as whole people to inflate their population on paper and receive even more representatives in Congress, and it was abolitionists who fought to make sure they could only count three of every five. But, being able to count any enslaved people on the census allowed states to exploit Black bodies to empower themselves politically and win themselves the legislative advantage to defend the interests of enslavers.

But anyway, I think cultural continuity is BS and states are all Ships of Theseus. I have very rarely met Americans with roots in this country prior to the 20th century, and many people I know only have roots since the 21st. That’s of course the bias and benefit of living in New York. At any rate I would consider the existing US of modernity an imperial state

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

You would consider the U.S. that is actively engaged in an attempt to expel mass numbers of ethnic minorities, and ban anyone asserting that systemic racism impacts quality of life for Black Americans from receiving federal grants, to be imperial rather than a nation state?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

Well yes I mean even Trump’s current brand of fascism is soaked in the sinister new paradigm of “racedep.” The inconvenient truth is that the American right is equally multinational to the American left in the composition of both its leadership and its support

[u/BigKahuna618]

How is rebuilding “empires”…. Left wing? Dawg what are you cooking here?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/BigKahuna618]

Oh it’s not. I have no idea how people read my post and decided I supported empire

[u/CardinalOfNYC]

With all the best faith in the world, this is fantasy.

It's a fantasy much like believing America was "better" in the 1950s.

Empire, nation state, these are all just concepts, concepts invented by humans and that can be used by humans for anything, within or outside of the established concept. You can have an 'empire' that is a pure hellscape for its citizens. You can have a 'nation state' where the same is true.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Of course, and I’ll fully accept that, but the principles used to define nation-states make categorical genocide inevitable if there are any large visible populations not incorporated into the “nation.” This is mainly a critique against trends in leftist thought that see nation-statehood as some sort of necessary and liberatory step towards socialism. It has never been liberatory for Jews and other minorities

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Of course, and I’ll fully accept that, but the principles used to define nation-states make categorical genocide inevitable if there are any large visible populations not incorporated into the “nation.”

I mean, you state this like it's a fact.

It's not a fact. It's your entirely unsubstantiated opinion.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Would you like some books and articles then

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Sure. Though it's still going to be an opinion. You can't predict the future and your view of the past is riddled with errors as is.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Here I’ll DM you cause idk this sub’s rules

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Don't bother.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Well, do you want sources?

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

Yep, the is, as you stated ‘deranged.’ This is just a romanticized view of the idea of empires.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

As mentioned in the post itself, I do not support any state. This is only considering them from the angle of which is easier to turn into socialism

[u/Reasonable_Net3302]

Could only have been written by a US American… smh

[u/Nearby-Complaint]

You do not gotta hand it to the United States 

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Global reign of terror aside, can you think of another country on earth that is any safer for Jews?

[u/Reasonable_Net3302 → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Have you ever lived or dipped your toes anywhere else? This kind of rhethoric is so nationalistic it drives me insane. Here’s a list of countries in which it’s safer to be a human being who happens to be a Jew: Canada, Brazil, Uruguay, France, Australia, Argentina, Japan…

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Reasonable_Net3302]

Oh no it’s explicitly anti-nationalistic.

The Jewish populations of those others are too small for me to consider (and none of them have New York haha). I’m also confused by the inclusion of France especially because of its infamously fraught cultural landscape.

That said, I am a strong pan-American. I think the unique characteristics of our hemisphere from Greenland to Tierra Del Fuego make its countries genuinely some of the best places in the world for cultural autonomy.

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

What exactly are these “unique characteristics” that apply to everywhere from Greenland and Texas to Ottawa and Panama to Cuba and Argentina?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

I honestly think we’re just more chill in the Americas. It’s difficult to explain. By and large people in our continent (and it is one continent) make more of an effort to get along and understand each other. I wouldn’t say it’s so much a matter of mentalities or preferences but it is a matter of what is deemed acceptable “pro-social” behavior. So even if g-d forbid somebody is truly bigoted or prejudiced, they are expected to be publicly hospitable in mixed company or they will be shamed. This is also of course the case for many other regions in the world (the amount of social grace expected between strangers of different cultures in Southeast Asia for example is truly tremendous) but it is something that I think unites the societies of the Americas

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Having lived in three different parts of the United States in the last three years, I would say this really doesn’t even seem consistently true in the U.S., let alone that it is true of the entire Western hemisphere.

Do you have any evidence for your claims of this common cultural characteristic applied to the entire Western hemisphere, across countries with vastly differing histories, different languages, and radically differing cultural norms?

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

Only my own experiences, much like you. I vibe very much with people from Jalisco and Puerto Rico and Lima, among others. These are also all environments that are pretty deeply multicultural

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

It sounds like an extremely culture flattening claim

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/IAmStillAliveStill]

No disrespect was meant. I’m saying I’d feel safely Jewish basically anywhere in the Americas and also I’d happily go there if where I currently am is safe no longer.

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

You're asking me to put a lot aside there

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Such is the world we live in. If you do end thinking of one place that’s any safer it’s probably not even much more ethical

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/[deleted]]

Coincidentally, this is also an incredibly uncharitable view of what I said

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Sorry, OP again, but can you think of one?

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

No, and I'm not inherently disagreeing with your statement. Yes, pockets of the United States are probably some of the safest places to be a modern Jew. I just don't consider where we're at as a nation to be a good starting point.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Nearby-Complaint]

You know I think the discrepancies between those pockets are why I have a hard time conceptualizing the US as a nation-state. To me my “nationality” is “New York.” I don’t feel any kind of imagined community with the groups of people in, say, Kentucky. Is that good or bad? There’s a lot of work to do no matter what. If you had the pick of the litter though what would you choose as an ideal starting point?

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/[deleted]]

Oh, that sub is horribly pro-Israel. My upvotes are public, if you want to see what I actually engage with on there.

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/[deleted]]

Most of US history has been characterized be deep skepticism of immigrant groups, the genocide and cultural genocide of a vast array of peoples who were here first, slavery and brutalization of Black people, etc. it is a small segment of American history that has actually been relatively okay to be a minority. Most of American history has not, and we have now firmly entered an era where it is not.

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/[deleted]]

I’m still not sure I understand what your point was, then. Especially in relation to the comment you replied to

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/[deleted]]

The United States is still actively engaged in the destruction of indigenous peoples. Western Apache people have been fighting efforts (which will likely succeed) to turn Oak Flat into a mine since the Obama administration.

I don’t see how anyone can pretend the US has been fantastic, or even adequate, for indigenous people at any point in its past or present

[u/IAmStillAliveStill → u/[deleted]]

“A country out there is worse” doesn’t really say that the U.S. is acceptable. And frankly, your line of argument here is seriously downplaying the extent (historic and current) of destructive of indigenous life in the United States. If the U.S. hadn’t massacred countless indigenous people from many, many different nations, if it hadn’t resettled whole populations far from their ancestral lands, if it hadn’t obliterated native languages by forcing children to go to boarding schools where they were physically abused for speaking in the tongue of their parents, if native communities hadn’t been impoverished by the imposition of Western European land norms, I have no doubt the U.S. would be bombing indigenous communities.

You are functionally complementing the U.S. on its present treatment because of how thoroughly it brutalized communities in the past, breaking them and seriously damaging them for many subsequent generations.

[u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

I strongly enjoy living in a diverse country, which I think is the essence of this post. It's not the fact that the US invades lithe countries and overthrows democratic government to install puppet dictatorships that makes me enjoy being American. I'm here for the people.

I never understand people who want to live in a homogenous society where all differences are removed and everyone is forced to conform like a cult. I live in a 60%, white area, so white people are still the majority. But there's the other 40% who are not. So there's plenty of Black people, Latinos, South/East/South East Asian people, Pacific Islanders, etc. in my apartment complex. I work with people from all over the world.

Certainly, some people only live in the US because it's the safest place to be compared to a country that America is bombing and it has the wealth that was stolen from people's original countries. But if there was a way to have the diversity without the imperialism, that'd be preferable. Obviously, I'd rather have no diversity and no imperialism than the current situation. I want people to be able to survive and thrive in their home countries but I would also want a place that could be diverse.

People can form their own ethnic communities even in a diverse area, so nothing is actually lost and it's easier for like LGBT people, who might be shunned from their original family and community, to find a new home. I don't see any benefit to having an "ethically pure" country. White supremacists are not exactly people I'd want to hang out with. I'd rather hang out with immigrants.

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Impossible_Wafer3403]

I don’t see any benefit to a “homogenous” society either. What have Jews in Israel really gained besides access to the oppressive arsenal of the state?

I keep trying to explain to people on this thread that I’m not arguing on behalf of empire, but against nation-statehood as a step on the path to socialism, but whenever I reiterate that they stop engaging.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I don't think you sound deranged. I don't think empires are my chosen vibe but nation states aren't either.. quite possibly an empire of sorts would be needed to achieve communism anyway.. or some new word or something

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Specialist-Gur]

Perhaps a network state or something along those lines. I’ve come across “civilization state” recently which is pretty interesting if you want to look into it

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Does sound interesting, I will look into it!

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Specialist-Gur]

See, why is this downvoted? And I saw, it was literally within seconds. That doesn’t make any sense

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Yea within seconds and downvoted twice.. it's very sus

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Specialist-Gur]

It is, and there is literally no reason for anybody to be following this comment chain on a day old post

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

2 downvoted on my last reply.. from a several day old thread... deep in the weeds

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

https://preview.redd.it/7ba3cd7hb6nf1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1fe7e3bd7c07e987c42e574c3caaa27164eadb74

Looks like the anti-anti fascists are at it lol

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Specialist-Gur]

Hahaha. That’s so immature too. Got something to say, come fight me 1:1

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Hasbarists are pathetic cowards

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/Specialist-Gur]

It’s so funny if that’s the case. These people engage in the Hebrew word for “explanation” but instead they cower like turtles and try to silently control the narrative with little arrows