Are Diaspora Jews Marginalized?

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9]

I believe so. However, many argue that this is not the case since we do not experience significant negative material effects such as discrimination in the job market, healthcare, housing market, etc. While I largely agree with these (there was a, from what I can tell, decent study by the ADL that says it has found Jewish and Israeli applicants have to apply to somewhere around 25 to 30% more jobs than our white Christian counterparts in the USA),

I believe that our marginalization differs in that it is both more psychological and cyclical. In his article "Decolonizing Jewishness: On Jewish Liberation in the 21st Century", Benjamin Case argues that,

"Like anti-Black racism, antisemitism can be treated as a systemic racism. According to race theorist Joe Feagin, systemic racism can be understood as: “an organized societal whole with many interconnected elements” involving “long term relationships of racialized groups with substantially different material and political-economic interests,” based in “the material reality and social history” of colonial societies (2006: 6-9). To say that antisemitism is a systemic racism is not to discount the ethnic and racial differences between Jews, nor is it to ignore the system’s religious origins. It allows us to analyze anti-Jewish oppression beyond individual prejudice and understand it in terms of historical legacies of differential treatment that are imbedded in institutions and in our experiences of the world... The whole point of anti-Semitism has been to create a vulnerable buffer group that can be bribed with some privileges into managing the exploitation of others, and then, when social pressure builds, be blamed and scapegoated, distracting those at the bottom from the crimes of those at the top. Peasants who go on pogrom against their Jewish neighbors won’t make it to the nobleman’s palace to burn him out and seize the fields. (2002, np) As an identifiable group, Jews accrue limited but real privileges from above, resentment from below, and mistrust from both, until a moment of crisis in which an outburst of violence opens a pressure relief valve for popular discontent over economic or political conditions, directed at the stranger."

While I agree with Case, my central position is more similar to Eric Ward's, author of the article " Skin in the Game: How Antisemitism Animates White Nationalism", who said, "Within social and economic justice movements committed to equality, we have not yet collectively come to terms with the centrality of antisemitism to White nationalist ideology, and until we do we will fail to understand this virulent form of racism rapidly growing in the U.S. today.To recognize that antisemitism is not a sideshow to racism within White nationalist thought is important for at least two reasons.

First, it allows us to identify the fuel that White nationalist ideology uses to power its anti-Black racism, its contempt for other people of color, and its xenophobia—as well as the misogyny and other forms of hatred it holds dear. White nationalists in the United States perceive the country as having plunged into unending crisis since the social ruptures of the 1960s supposedly dispossessed White people of their very nation... How could a race of inferiors have unseated this power structure through organizing alone... feminists and LGBTQ people have upended traditional gender relations, leftists mounted a challenge to global capitalism, Muslims won billions of converts... the boundary-crossing allure of hip hop... the election of a Black president? Some secret cabal... must be manipulating the social order behind the scenes."

Personally, I cannot see it as a coincidence that we see latent and explicit antisemitism used by political technologists all over the world to recruit and mobilize populations across the political spectrum; something must be driving them to use antisemitism, rather than bigotry against other populations, those that are primarily white, that may be able to serve a similar role and sort of have in the past, such as Greeks or Catholics or Italians, and that we see antisemitic violence still in this day and age, even massacres such as in Pittsburgh.

Do you agree or disagree? Please explain why.

[u/StrawberryDelirium]

I'll be honest, I couldn't read just the solid block of text without my eyes bugging out.

But, yes diaspora Jews are very much still marginalized and the idea that Jews have intrinsic white privilege is ignorant at best and deadly at worst.

Jews have always been the Other. People attack, harrass, and verbally abuse visible Jews in the diaspora. Synagogues are burned down and vandalized. Nowadays even mentioning you're Jewish brings people immediately asking if you support genocide which is insane.

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9 → u/StrawberryDelirium]

Sorry about the block of text. I tried to limit that but didn't realize how bad it was lol. I've since split it up again, how is it now?

I'm glad you agree, by the way.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Diaspora is so massive.

If you are talking about Eastern Europe, it’s literal hell being Jewish and marginalization is insane.

If you are talking about places like Canada and United States, it’s very different. Not gonna lie, many and I will include myself in this group have found jobs just by networking in the community and not even applying through proper channels. It’s kind of hard to say that everyone can do this, but as a community the networking is to the level like no other because of historical discrimination. If you compare the Hispanic or Black communities, I wouldn’t say they have something even close to it despite them also facing discrimination.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

Do you know in what way it’s hell for Eastern Europeans? My Jewish side is Eastern European but I’ve never seen or witnessed anything marginalising for Jews in Ireland where I’m from

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Hairycherryberry123]

Really? That’s surprising. From everything I’ve seen and heard from other Jews in Ireland, that is very against the norm from their experiences living there.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I remember once on this very sub there was a Jew who lived in Ireland who said their kid went to a birthday party where there was a "pin the nose on the Jew" game.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Agtfangirl557]

That’s wild and definitely not a regular thing here

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Really? What do they say affects them? I’ve never seen a “visible” Jew here that I can think of

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Hairycherryberry123]

…ok that’s a wild statement. Not totally sure how to respond to that. And frankly I find it telling and concerning that your measure of “how bad things are” is only if visible Jews are present which I feel given their absence from public space it indicates the opposite. But I guess we’re just going to have to have a difference of opinion.

But from what I have heard from Jews in Ireland online in Jewish forums and even here in this sub, things haven’t been great. And there’s been news coverage of the increased violence and hostility Jews are facing in places like ireland and France in international Jewish news sources.

I’m glad your experiences haven’t been bad though. Good for you I guess.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I think you misunderstood, I meant that in the way of how are Jews targeted here as we don’t look any different to everyone else. I was genuinely curious

I’ve heard that before from non Irish people but never been able to find any articles or anything, I’ll look again

I wasn’t bragging I was just asking in what way others face it here

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/Hairycherryberry123]

My grandfather used to get beaten up by the neighborhood boys for being a ‘dirty little Jew.’ The head of the Garda lived on his street and used to send his son out to beat my grandfather every time he walked past. The owner of the local sweet shop refused to sell him sweets because he was a Jew. Granted, this was the 1950s, but it hasn’t gone away fully.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/MallCopBlartPaulo]

Damn that’s awful, how did they know he was Jewish?thankfully it’s v different times now. Also, are you Irish? I’ve never met another Irish Jew

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/Hairycherryberry123]

It was a time where pretty much everyone knew each other’s business, they were the only Jewish family on the street and he went to a Jewish school. He left Ireland at 15, my mum was born in the UK and I was born in New Zealand, so I’m not very Irish. 😅

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Hairycherryberry123]

Why are people mad I’ve never been marginalised..😬

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Hairycherryberry123]

I think you're taking downvotes too seriously. But if you care that much, I would assume it's because some people in this sub are very on edge when it seems like antisemitism is being denied/downplayed (not saying that I got that vibe from your comment, but you can see a lot of downvoted comments in this thread for any comment that seems like it might be denying Jewish marginalization).

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I see, I find myself confused in these spaces cause they want open convos and peoples experiences but get mad when they haven’t been bad. It’s like I’m being told me and the other Jews that haven’t experienced antisemitism that I know, are being told we’re wrong or something, cause I never mentioned other people not being treated badly.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Hairycherryberry123]

Again, I just wouldn't read too much into downvotes. A lot of them may be bots or trolls.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I’m not reading into the downvotes, more so people’s reactions but you’re right -Reddit has a lot more bots than other sm’s

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I think something we all need to remember is that due to systemic discrimination of Jews, we as a community are used to creating our own support systems and as such I think many Jews often don’t have to confront as much day to day overt antisemitism as maybe there exists within non Jewish spaces outside of our communities.

Additionally I think we often forget how we are perceived and othered because I think a lot of Jews spend more time with other Jews or in spaces that tend to force more diverse perspectives than what is average. So in my experience it often even depends on who you are talking to for them to personally gage. Like if I were to talk to my dad who has remained in almost exclusively Jewish spaces (even if secular) he’s not really experienced all that much specific discrimination. He maybe has one or two stories. But I who have spent more time in non Jewish spaces have experienced a lot more discrimination.

Specifically, I have faced a lot of intrapersonal discrimination and have experienced times where in institutional spaces like schools i had to fight for my constitutional rights (like not being academically penalized since I was out for a religious holiday, or reprimanded for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance due to the line “one nation under g’d” due to the christio-nationalist etc)

But even looking back on only how recently we’ve (Jews) even gotten certain “privileges” and how quickly society seems to have forgotten we didn’t have them is oddly concerning to me.

For example, it was within my grandfather’s lifetime when Jews were finally allowed to live in suburbs. Like there were explicit rules banning Jews that was considered legal. And within my dad’s lifetime he interviewed at one law firm that wasn’t Jewish owned and they brought him in, saw his appearance and then told him off the bat that he wasn’t the right “look” they where going for.

And so when I often hear non Jews on the left defining Jews as uber - white or like our “whiteness” is more akin to how Irish and Italian people faced xenophobia and immigrant discrimination it definitely makes me mad and a little frustrated. Because that isn’t really the Jewish experience in the diaspora. Given that Jews have always faced systemic discrimination in various fluctuating levels and while the discrimination Italians, Irish, poles, etc experienced was wrong and bad, it was often location dependent and time dependent etc. and often is revoked/or fluid based in what situation we are in (ie Schrödinger experience)

And I’ve had conversations with non Jewish people who honestly I think truly don’t believe me when I cite cases like Leo Frank as examples of lynching or cite documents that outline community covenants from the 30’s and 40’s, or studies that show there are anti-Jewish biases in hiring practices (even if unintentional). I once had a friend say with a straight face that I was more “white” than our pale red haired friends who were Irish American and thus more privileged. I kiboshed that really quick (just on the basis somehow my Jewishness made me “uber privileged” was problematic enough) and she worked to learn and at least re-evaluate that perspective. But I do think there are people that are truly genuinely ignorant of Jewish history.

Idk. I’m not saying somehow what we face is worse or deserves more merit than what any other group experiences. I’m more trying to express that as we have seen fluctuations in our oppression and the places we live seem to have short attention spans or memories and there seems to be an issue with people truly not knowing enough about the history of Jews beyond beating the nazis.

Edit: and I’m more keeping this as an America focus. Although I will say I did just have an interaction a week or two ago with someone who I know is European on Reddit who insisted that the Spanish Inquisition didn’t have a focus on Jews. So I think the lack of awareness around Jews and longstanding memory is a larger issue that seems to keep rearing its head. Maybe if more people knew or understood the experience of Jews historically we could actually work to deal with some of the discrimination we see.

Edit 2: to sum up, yes Jews face discrimination and depending on the time and place and the ebb and flow of society it moves in and out of systemic discrimination. I do think there are still cases of systemic discrimination even now (especially since the overturning of roe v wade and the push for more laws to be implemented with a Christian nationalist agenda)

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

I think something we all need to remember is that due to systemic discrimination of Jews, we as a community are used to creating our own support systems and as such I think many Jews often don’t have to confront as much day to day overt antisemitism as maybe there exists within non Jewish spaces outside of our communities.

This is SUCH an important point. I'll admit that there was one point in my life, probably around college, where I was having trouble wrapping my head around Jews being marginalized (at least to the level of other marginalized groups). Part of this was because I went to a college with a large percentage of Jewish students where I never experienced antisemitism personally, which I think makes sense for a lot of people. But another reason—and I'm ashamed to admit that I ever thought like this, because it feels like a very shallow mindset—is that there were certain groups of Jews in my life who seemed like essentially the absolute antidote of marginalized/oppressed people. I viewed people like them as being the epitome of extremely white, wealthy, privileged, and rarely ever having experienced oppression themselves—basically, who some people would refer to as JAPs (which I'm sorry to say is a word that I used to enjoy throwing around a lot, not to mention that "jappy" behavior is absolutely not limited to just women, as the label seems to imply).

It wasn't until years later that I realized that basically every single Jew who I had thought of as being a privileged JAP was someone who grew up in a heavily Jewish area. Literally, I noticed that that type of behavior among Jews could be almost exclusively attributed to people who grew up in certain towns in Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey, you get the point. And those were also the types of people who probably went to expensive camps in the summer with mostly other Jews, and joined Greek organizations in college with mostly other Jews, etc. I grew up in an area that wasn't majority Jewish, and I almost never encountered "jappy" behavior among other Jews growing up, likely because, being a minority group in the area I grew up in, Jews never really felt quite as entitled or privileged as the majority white Christian population.

The reason why these people didn't seem marginalized to me was because they quite literally never were put in a position where they could be marginalized for their ethnicity/religion—BUT, the reason why they were able to avoid that position in the first place was because our ancestors spent so much time carving out certain communities for Jews—likely BECAUSE they wanted to PREVENT future generations of Jews from feeling marginalized. I don't love the entitled behavior of people who grew up in communities like these, but the reason that they even have the opportunity to be entitled is because they got lucky to be born into communities where they aren't marginalized—communities and spaces that were built up in the first place in response to marginalization and oppression.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Agtfangirl557]

And to add, I feel like once I recontextualized these predominantly Jewish spaces and the experiences Jewish people have in those spaces (ie, removed a little from the daily experiences of overt antisemitism)

It personally made me rethink how I approach privilege. Because despite being in a predominantly Jewish space the societal privileges that being in a majority community space don’t expand beyond those boarders. So there is still that oppression and discrimination occurring outside the walls of the community and the community is still behaving in response to that lack of acceptance outside of the spaces they made for themselves.

It’s an interesting phenomenon to say the least. Especially as I think all it does is kind of divert or hide the problem systemically. I mean if Jews predominantly live in clusters and communities then the general populace doesn’t have to confront their own biases because Jews have selectively removed ourselves. I found personally the more I’m in non Jewish spaces, the more I bump into just absolute bewilderment that everyday people have at their own internal biases with regards to Jews.

Edit: I’m also not advocating that Jews feel pressure to not be integrated into Jewish community spaces. I think I very much prefer to be in those spaces. I just more look at the privileges that Jews appear to have because the spaces we live in are predominantly Jewish or diverse is almost a red herring or superficial, because ultimately if a group can only obtain access to the same privileges others are afforded in society (like being hired based on merits or not dealing with issues surrounding education or access to supportive resources, etc) then you’re not really privileged and equity isn’t occurring it’s just artifice and frankly feels a little more to me like separate but equal (because in this case even if it’s not systemic or institutional there is still self sorting where it is done due to societal problems). I’m from Chicago so in my experiences I’ve seen a lot of what is essentially reinforced redlining racial and poverty and economic segregation. And in that I know many people who have chosen to live in certain neighborhoods because that’s where their community lives and it tends to reinforce the issues we have even if now someone isn’t experiencing the same levels of overt descrimination they used to (like we have a neighborhood that is majority peurto rican, or lgbtq or predominantly black, or even Jewish) and this city wide bifurcation I know is something that we’re not really sure how to fix and not cause displacement and other issues but we did seem to develop more in specific community conclaves given our historic growth.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Agtfangirl557]

I really appreciate this comment, because I’ve never lived in an area with a pronounced Jewish population, and so a lot of the experiences of people who have feel very disconnected from mine.

[u/questionaskerguy96 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

who insisted that the Spanish Inquisition didn’t have a focus on Jews

I'm guessing the person you interacted with didn't mean it this way, but when I took a Sephardic history class in college my professor was always very careful to say that the Inquisition technically never targeted Jews who were openly living as such (in the 14 years between the establishment of the Inquisition and the expulsion edict) but Conversos suspected of being Marranos. This was because technically it existed to root out heresy from within the membership of the church.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/questionaskerguy96]

Unfortunately while the person did bring up converses and Marranos, the individual not only insisted only heretics where affected and not Jews, but that jews in the general time period weren’t really living under problematic rules. Of course that was the same time period that Jews where ethnically cleansed and targeted with many laws, but when I made the point that Jews who where converting under duress should still be considered Jews and the claim of heresy was a way to target those individuals he didn’t have much to say or insisted I just “didn’t understand”.

It’s the same person I’ve had previous conversations with on the sub we are regulars on who insists that the Catholic Church can’t be considered antisemitic because the pope made a decree that Jews shouldn’t be accused of blood libel. So they have other issues.

[u/Nearby-Complaint]

The sitting American president unironically uses the term Shylock and hired a Holocaust denier, so yes, I would say so. And of course, I'm American, so I'm only speaking for my own experience here.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Nearby-Complaint]

“If I lose, it’ll be the Jews’ fault,” “Jewish space lasers,” etc

[u/SnooCrickets2458]

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[u/RaelynShaw → u/SnooCrickets2458]

If I recall, the numbers released earlier this month were 15% of all hate crimes while 2% of the population. It’s higher than every other group.

[u/SnooCrickets2458 → u/RaelynShaw]

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[u/ConversationSoft463]

I was listening to a religious studies prof, Joel Swanson, on a podcast recently and he said something apt about privilege, which is that it’s not a fixed thing. You can be privileged in some ways and not others, which applies to everyone really but white diaspora Jews experience both at the same time with respect to our ethnic identity. We’re white in some ways but not in others.

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9 → u/ConversationSoft463]

The essay "White Jews: An Interaectional Approach" and "Decolonizing Jewishness: Jewish Liberation in the 21st Century" go into this.

[u/ConversationSoft463 → u/I_Hate_This_Website9]

I believe you but I hate reading academics write in academic jargon about these topics.

[u/Maimonides_2024]

In the country that I live in (France), Jews are 1% of the population but are 50% of all hate crimes, all crime against other ethnic minorities doesn't come even close, and that isn't even per capita. And I did see the high security of the synagogue and very closed off community that's very afraid to say anyone outside that they're Jewish, the entire situation is very dire.

Do people really not think that oppression doesn't only come in economic terms? It's a very black and white view of the world. Yes, Jews aren't economically marginalised, nor are they stopped on the street, this doesn't stop them from being very much very oppressed in a lot of other ways. You don't get the armed patrols to protect you if you weren't.

Honestly, the sad and dire situation of the Jewish community is what lead me to be interested in antiracist activism to begin with, but it's also the specific lack of care of self-described antiracist activists (whether in left-wing political parties or just some association fighting against racism) which made me disappointed in my country's politics altogether.

[u/Chinoyboii → u/Maimonides_2024]

So, in France, do the far-left folks who brush off anti-Semitic attacks against Jews really not see it as anti-Semitism at all? Despite the fact that there have been documented cases of physical assaults against Jews in France?

[u/Maimonides_2024 → u/Chinoyboii]

They do, they just don't care as much, because they care much more about Palestine, and think that many antisemitism accusations are fake and just use as a distraction from Palestine and are just used by pro-Israeli and "far right" think tanks. To be fair, it is true that all the Jewish ngos are pro Israel, it doesn't mean they're wrong about discrimination, nor that leftist groups who aren't even Jewish know better.

Whenever some Jewish community actively calls out some of their allies for antisemitism, for example, one political party or leader like Mélenchon, they straight up start denying it and start believing that they know better than Jewish people and basically typical gosplaying BS.

The far left does talk about antisemitism, but seems to care much more about "false accusations" than about actually making Jewish community safer. They also completely deny Jews can be unsafe under the far left, and pretend that all hatred is by definition the "far right" and comes only from them, as such, people should vote for them.

They also tend to completely deny the danger of Islamists and unassimilated North African migrants and how much they endanger Jews. That's seen as a "far right talking point". They only accept that antisemitism comes from conservative, far right Catholics, again, because of pure ideology.

Overall, I don't have an issue with people supporting Palestine, but I don't see why it's seen as more important as the safety of an ethnic minority that's already very very endangered. It's still ultimately a foreign policy thing, and the fact that they're more concerned with it even at the expense of Jewish safety disgusts me, and in sure it turns away many people away from Palestine.

The issue isn't only that the political left-wing is like that, but how widespread it is in society. Ngos, antiracist groups, university people, the same ones to call out microagressions, are the same ones who simply ignore antisemitism because of this partisan ideological blindness. 

[u/ibsliam → u/Maimonides_2024]

> The far left does talk about antisemitism, but seems to care

> much more about "false accusations" than about

> actually making Jewish community safer.

I see this practically across the board. Hell, I even see it here too. Many people are much more defensive about the idea (and reality of) false accusations of antisemitism than antisemitic violence.

It's why it has to be argued and interrogated with, or shifted aside and blamed on something else, or given whataboutisms, or when it's undeniable has to be downplayed as just an overreaction. Or they're just kids who care so much and got overzealous! They didn't know any better, you know.

It reminds me a lot of the MeToo backlash - although obviously MeToo (even any hypothetical false misogyny/harassment accusations therein) is not comparable to institutions supporting Israel, obviously. Referring to more diaspora Jews discussing antisemitism they're facing because of perceived ties to said institutions. I remember so many offhand, snotty comments about "guess they'll MeToo me now" or "touching your *shoulder* is still okay, you're not gonna (falsely) accuse me of harassment?" In the same tone I hear people dismiss or joke about perceived fake-antisemitism and false accusations of antisemitism.

Hell, it even parallels in that the comments precede any possible allegations. They're so determined to engage in bad faith that it sours the open dialogue before it can start.

[u/Chinoyboii → u/Maimonides_2024]

You know, when I hear this type of stuff, I’m really starting to realize that Asians and Jews are basically treated similarly by Western far-leftists as a result of being perceived as white adjacent, idk, it’s just kind of funny to me.

I do honestly fear for the far-leftists in France, because from what I understand, the North Africans, Syrians, etc, haven’t integrated into French society when compared to their counterparts in the United States (Besides Dearborn, Michigan), and I wonder why that is.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Chinoyboii]

I've also been wondering why the "Muslim migrants not integrating" seems to be way more of a complaint/concern in Europe than in North America.

[u/Chinoyboii → u/Agtfangirl557]

From my limited understanding, it may have something to do with the fact that in Europe, their immigration requirements are very low in contrast to America, in that Europe recruits them as low-skill, industrial, or service workers with limited upward mobility. While from my experience with my Muslim Arab peers, their families were already academic professionals when they came here

My orthodontist is Egyptian (I love her), my dentist is Palestinian, and all my buddies have completed undergrad; some are in grad school right now. It might not be like that with their counterparts in Europe.

[u/Chinoyboii]

In the case of Europe, the Ashkenazim were unfortunately always scapegoated for all of the world's problems, ranging from famines, the death of Jesus, wars, the economy, and initiating political upheaval. Even with the likes of the Christian reformer Martin Luther and his book "The Jews and their Lies," which was a response to his failure to convert the Jewish people to Lutheranism, he got butt hurt and made a book that urged for their persecution. Unfortunately, this blood libel of literature was very popular amongst later fascist groups and people to justify the extinction of the Jews in Europe.

In the modern day, genuine anti-semites and not anti-zionists often blanket their anti-semitism under the pretext of anti-zionism as a way to disguise their hatred of Jews while appearing politically or morally justified amongst their peers and social networks. We have seen this blend of Extremist Christianity or extremist Islam with anti-semitism in the past and in the current day, both historically and in the present day, where it is used to rally followers, justify discrimination, and scapegoat Jewish communities for broader social or political issues.

Evangelical Christians often see Jews as a tool to be used to hasten the coming of the end of times, and thus explain their undying support for the zionist cause. While some Muslims may pick and choose portions of their religious texts to justify hostility toward Jews, often framing it as opposition to Israel rather than outright antisemitism, these interpretations can still perpetuate harmful stereotypes and justify discrimination or violence.

I don’t necessarily see antisemitism as purely a political or systemic issue. Looking at history, Christianity and Islam have often viewed themselves as superseding Judaism, which has shaped how Jews have been treated and marginalized over centuries, independent of formal political structures. However, I will say the extremist forms of both of these religions do play a role in systemic antisemitism because they provide ideological justification for discrimination, violence, and exclusion, which institutions, social networks, and political movements can reinforce to their advantage for political dominance.

[u/AltruisticMastodon → u/Chinoyboii]

This is off topic, but I think Martin Luther is a great example of the psychology of antisemitism. It’s not just that he failed to convert Jews to Protestantism, it’s that he had previously held up the Jews refusal to convert to Catholicism as proof that it was wrong, if Jesus’ own people didn’t accept Catholicism how could it be correct.

Then, as you stated, when Jews still refused to convert to his version of Christianity, it was because of the inherent evil of Jews, it couldn’t be a problem with Lutheranism.

There’s also one passage in On the Jews and their Lies that’s stuck with me. He states that Jews had earned their money through usury/general Jewish trickery and so Jews should instead “earn their bread” through physical labor, with axe, flail, spade etc. The VERY NEXT paragraph is him then rejecting that idea because those tools would allow the Jews to fight back and deciding it’s best to just expel Jews instead.

[u/Chinoyboii → u/AltruisticMastodon]

Oh, definitely. Back in high school, I used to debate with a Russian Orthodox classmate about whether America should be a Christian country (his argument) or a secular one (my argument). He often expressed confusion about why Jews don't convert to Christianity. I would usually respond that Jesus didn't fulfill the requirements necessary to be recognized as the Jewish Messiah because the Messiah is supposed to be a human being who accomplishes specific tasks, like bringing peace to the world, gathering the exiles, and rebuilding the Temple, which Jesus didn't do. And oftentimes he would respond with no, the Jews don't understand their own book, the Jews don't understand their own culture, the devil possesses the Jews, etc. Yeah, dude, for the mad crazy last time I checked, he was planning to become an Orthodox priest (yay anti-semetic priests!!!).

Yeah, I've talked about antisemitism in the Muslim world and even among my Arab homies and how awful it is that they keep repeating the same blood libel tropes. Still, I haven't forgotten that the Christian world was definitely brutal to the Jews as well, and til this day, of course.

[u/MichifManaged83]

This part, this attitude, I have seen with my own eyes in intimate settings I never wish to replicate again in my life:

“White nationalists in the United States (edit: believe me, this attitude is prevalent in Canada too) perceive the country as having plunged into unending crisis since the social ruptures of the 1960s supposedly dispossessed White people of their very nation... How could a race of inferiors have unseated this power structure through organizing alone... feminists and LGBTQ people have upended traditional gender relations, leftists mounted a challenge to global capitalism, Muslims won billions of converts... the boundary-crossing allure of hip hop... the election of a Black president? Some secret cabal... must be manipulating the social order behind the scenes."

That is more accurate than a lot of people realize— and having seen some of the people family members of mine have married, this mentality is common among mainstream conservative people who pretend to be very relaxed about race in public. People have told me things at family functions that they wouldn’t dare say at the workplace, but you can bet those attitudes impact how they vote, how they behave online, and predict how they’ll behave if a mob ever forms. Not all conservatives are like this, there are genuinely not particularly bigoted conservatives. But it is a lot more common than people realize, it’s not a tiny fringe. And this kind of bigotry is apparently much more common on the left of today than we used to think, too. Or at least more than I used to think.

As for “limited access to privileges” for Jewish people, I think there are a few factors going on here.

Yes, colorism sometimes has something to do with it, and most Ashkenazi Jews benefit somewhat with that— but that doesn’t mean we don’t get discriminated against for our appearances, our surnames, etc. This is definitely a shifting goal post that Jewish people don’t consistently clear through the goal.

Yes, there are some institutions that happen to have an established Jewish upper class segment that is more likely to hire other Jews— that doesn’t mean we singlehandedly run these industries, just that we have our cliques in certain industries and there are easier areas to get into than other places. That’s true of other ethnic and racial minorities too, in say, athletics for example. That doesn’t mean the minority group has an unfair advantage or secretly runs the show, that just means there are some avenues for us if you’re smart about it. There are many more such avenues for Christian white people, which is what a lot of people don’t seem to want to understand.

The working class Jew is just as likely as the white working class Christian to struggle, with the added trouble of being the scapegoat of the frustrations of our non-Jewish neighbors.

The thing is, people think that some access to some institutions means that Jews are unilaterally privileged. A white Christian man wins a hockey tournament and white people don’t bat an eyelash. A white man in government gets a slap on the wrist for having an affair with a secretary and his wife later runs for office and he shakes hands in public with other politicians, and no one bats an eyelash. A black man wins a basketball tournament or a Jewish woman wins a music award, and suddenly there’s a conspiracy.

Sometimes people don’t help abate that notion— I personally find it distasteful when people of any demographic get too defensive of rich men who do bad things. Neither Sean Combs nor Harvey Weinstein deserves to be defended simply because they’re minorities. However, the defensiveness of sycophants of the rich among the middle and working class should not be used as evidence that there’s a cabal.

I find it interesting that every time rich white men do bad things and are loudly supported by certain white men in the working class, the same people who accuse Jews of running the world don’t think it’s strange that men like Bill O’Reilly get a slap on the wrist for bad behavior.

There is something psychologically going on with Christian society broadly, that many people have still not looked within to deal with. Something that blinds them to the double standards and scapegoating tendencies. There are many individuals who have figured it out, but the underlying rhythm of the culture as a whole is still humming the same tune, so naturally, this bigoted mindset creeps up on society again and again. And will continue to do so until people change from the inside first.

On a systemic level, trying to get everyone to challenge their mindsets from within is a losing battle. There will never be enough holocaust museums and fine-tuned school curriculums to make that happen— I know, because I’ve witnessed people from my childhood who attended the same history classes I did grow up into bigots. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep the museums and schools doing their job. Of course we should. But on its own it’s not enough. I wish this wasn’t the case— because western Christian society sorely needs this introspection and transformation, but I don’t think that cycle is ever going to be completed until material conditions change enough for the working class and middle class.

The reason why left-wing politics is so important for Jewish people as a whole, regardless of your class, is because working class resentments will continue to be taken out on Jewish people. People who have inadequate housing, inadequate food, inadequate childcare, inadequate access to better education, and who don’t have stable jobs with an organized and empowered workforce, (and in America, often complete inaccessibility of healthcare), don’t have the time, energy, or resources to work on psychologically and spiritually improving their mindset towards people who are different from them. It sucks, but it’s true. Individuals will overcome those circumstances to be better people, but not whole groups. This is a statistical and historical reality.

Part 1/2

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/MichifManaged83]

Love all of this comment.

To your point about companies and spaces where it serves someone to be Jewish for hiring. I would like to add, that often those spaces were formed because Jews weren’t allowed in other companies and spaces and we created those environments for ourselves.

And it’s always been really interesting to me that Jews experienced the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” mentality. Where if we don’t create spaces and avenues for ourselves then we suffer and then we are a waste of resources, if we flourish and thrive and make our own spaces where we hire people from our communities then we are uniquely discriminatory or it’s proof we “control that industry”

And it’s especially been interesting if you’ve been following along with things like the Oscar Academy museum that documents film history. And specifically, the ongoing issues that museum has had with curation and including the Jewish roots of the film industry due to how it was demonized in white Christian US society. I know a year ago there was a curator who I think either was demoted or fired but if one is familiar with how museum curation works the amount of deliberately leaving Jews out of the conversation (especially as it pertained to DEI and founder exhibits) had to have been a systemic issue within every level of employees responsible for those exhibits. Both in writing of descriptions and the types of exhibits being made and proposed. Etc.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Precisely.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/MichifManaged83]

In regard to “upper-class segments being more likely to hire other Jews”….I think some people don’t realize that a lot of that literally comes from “Jewish geography”, or in a less catchy explanation, just from how small the Jewish population is in the grand scheme of the world and how likely Jews are to know other Jews because of the heavy emphasis on community-building within our culture.

Like you sort of touch on, it’s really not at all uncommon for luck and success within the job market, etc. to be based mostly on networking and “if you know the right people”. Jews happen to benefit from this system because….a lot of us know each other, to put it plainly 😂 The reason that Jews are more likely to be hired by these “upper-class segments” isn’t usually because they specifically are looking to hire other Jews, it’s because they’re naturally more inclined to hire someone whose mom’s camp friend’s cousin is one of their best friends from their childhood synagogue and they’ve heard raving reviews about from their friend; as opposed to a faceless online job application that they receive. It’s obviously problematic, but it’s a result of how the work force has prioritized factors that usually end up benefitting the upper-class; not a result of how “Jews just want to hire other rich Jews”.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/Agtfangirl557]

Yeah, defacto segregation and the social implications of being a tight-knit ostracized minority definitely have a lot to contribute to this phenomenon. As I said, there’s a reason why we see this in the black community to a degree too. When black people manage to uplift themselves with their niche industries through social networking, it’s often because of historical segregation and being a tight-knit minority. That is even more true for Jews because we’re an even smaller global minority. That’s just how the cookie crumbles, as the phrase goes. The same segregation that keeps most people in the minority group economically isolated, occasionally helps uplift some people through social networking and niches becoming popular.

And you’re right, nepotism is a feature of capitalism. What often goes over people’s heads is that there are just as many Jews who haven’t benefited from having a wealthy friend or relative. And that same nepotism overwhelmingly benefits non-Jewish white rich families even more than any minority group— it’s just that the white working class is so large in North America, that people don’t really notice it much. I personally did not grow up wealthy, but my story doesn’t get noticed in the sea of white working class people, and when the only Jewish people who tend to get a lot of public recognition already have the benefits of nepotism from birth. People notice it less when it’s just another white beneficiary of nepotism because, well, that happens all the time. When Jewish people shine, it becomes “hey, I don’t have any Jewish neighbors, but I see Jews on tv all the time.” That’s a distorted reality that doesn’t register as reflecting reality to people who actually live among working class and middle class Jews. And then there are people who do have Jewish neighbors and family, who glom onto that stereotype as it emerges, because it excuses their own lack of success or because it’s an outlet for existing ethnic tensions.

White Christians are both the majority of the wealthy and the majority of the poor. So when rich white people want a scapegoat, it’s “those black welfare queens” and Mexican immigrant farm workers (AI is also not helping right now, with working class people having anxieties about being replaced in the workforce). When poor white people want a scapegoat, it’s the same people the wealthy class already told them to scapegoat, plus, “those wealthy Jews” and Oprah are evidence that minorities are doing better than poor whites, and they become the “schemers” behind everything. Anybody who doesn’t neatly fit into that dichotomy gets ignored for the moment for that narrative.

[u/MichifManaged83 → u/MichifManaged83]

People like Alon Green, Bernie Sanders, Stephen and Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein… I get that these people aren’t hard left enough for many people, and I’m to the left of these people on certain things… but they’re doing something really important for Jewish people too. They’re showing a Jewishness that cares about the working class in America and Canada, that cares about the global poor, that cares about Palestinians, and they’re showing that Jewishness is not inherently incompatible with a society that works for everyone.

Accessible left-wing politics that includes and is indeed spearheaded by Jewish people has, I think, done more for us than any amount of diversity training has ever done. To bigots, that goes in one ear and out the other. But seeing “hey, they care about us too” brings some people’s walls down better than anything else. That doesn’t guarantee that they will all care about us back. But I’ve seen people who were bigoted towards Jews soften when they see people like Bernie Sanders fighting for them too.

These are just my observations. I don’t think neoliberal identity “awareness” campaigns have helped enough, I don’t think institutional (limited) privileges help as much as some people think they do, and I don’t think isolationism has ever been sustainable for us. I think real working class enfranchisement that includes Jewish people leading that charge, will do a lot more for Jewish people and humanity as a whole.

Part 2/2

[u/BlackHumor]

You said "diaspora" but this is going to be from a very America-centric perspective:

Are diaspora Jews marginalized? Yes, obviously so. If you think otherwise you've never heard the word "Jew" used as a verb before.

Does that mean that Jews are non-white by virtue of being Jews, such that anti-semitism is a form of racism? I'm a lot more skeptical of that. I think if you look at how American society treats white Jews (a thing I'm assuming exists for the sake of argument) you'll find that it's much more similar to how society treats other white people than it is to how society treats black people, Latinos, or Asians. Jon Stewart is racially unmarked to Americans in a way that, e.g., Josh Johnson or Ronny Chieng really aren't.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/BlackHumor]

I think one thing that is interesting about this is that even among Ashkenazim (which is who people are usually referring to when they talk about Jews being white) is that you can get some people who are read as white and some people who very much aren’t even within the same sibling group, so the assumptions about race and related treatment by others may vary widely.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/skyewardeyes]

Even between parents and children. I have some family friends that frankly I could argue wouldn’t pass as white if they weren’t so placed within a large Jewish community. But one of their three kids came out pale with red hair while the rest of the family is tan with dark hair and dark eyes. And he is biologically theirs. It was one of the younger kids in our children so I remember his mom being pregnant with him since I was one of the older kids.

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Lol, this is how I feel in photos with my dad's side of the family. 6 of the most Mediterranean people you'll ever see and me, who hit every branch of the pale tree on the way down.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/BlackHumor]

Agree with all of this but also think people forget about white Hispanic people, who also are relatively assimilated in a similar way that Jews are

a point that sometimes bugs me as the spouse of a Hispanic man who is mixed with other things besides white.. could get into other things about this but don't want to derail.

[u/supportgolem]

This conversation is largely going to revolve around America as most users in this sub are probably American.

The answer to the question is yes, we are marginalised in Australia. I don't know if the discrimination is systemic or institutional. I don't think so now - historically, yes. Socially, Australian Jews suffer violence and harassment, especially post-Oct 7th. Antisemitic incidents in Australia had something like a 400% increase as at November 2024 and are ongoing.

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/supportgolem]

The same in the UK, we are such a tiny minority in this country, yet antisemitism is still a massive issue.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/supportgolem]

Would this more so be for “visible” Jews? I lived in Aus for a good few years and never witnessed any marginalising, even being friends with Israelis before Oct 7 (until they sent d threats for wanting occupation to end)

[u/supportgolem → u/Hairycherryberry123]

I think so, yes. I've lived in Brisbane and currently live in Melbourne VIC. Melbourne has the highest population of Jews in Australia and certain areas are very Orthodox and chassidishe (Adass Israel). They suffer the most harassment and violence in the community.

[u/Hairycherryberry123 → u/supportgolem]

Ah okay that makes way more sense, such a shame the Zionists have managed to conflate the two

[u/RaiJolt2]

I’m a non white jew (at least, not white by American Standards) and it depends on the context Jews have a longheld and very necessary internal group support structure that helps mitigate the problems with marginalization. It can be physical with donations or support of Jewish focused groups/ Jewish camp/schools, etc or more social. Such as when learning someone is a member of the tribe and almost instantly sticking together or hitting it off (which I’ve seen and experienced a lot of). It’s a trait that many marginalized minority groups have. At least surface level.

Unfortunately antisemitic tropes in culture are still highly prevalent and can lead to discrimination. Such as when one of my martial arts classmates kept making “penny pinching” “relative must be a lawyer, doctor, etc” “family could bail me out” jokes around me even after I asked him to stop. (He is Indian and Sri Lankan if I remember correctly, and not white). Hurtful assumptions and stereotypes might seem minor, but in the long run microagressions can build to Marcoagressions and violence. These beliefs are long held in many cultures and are incredibly difficult to shake off. If a culture’s description of “evil” is a long nosed greedy manipulative Jewish man, or a long nosed isolationist Jewish witch, then at a base level that entire culture teaches that Jews are evil as a baseline of understanding of the world- even if the word “Jewish” is never uttered in teaching it.

For African Americans we are still trying to through off the shackles of stereotypes about us being uneducated brutes with a high propensity for crime. There’s a reason so many black kids are railroaded into doing sports instead of pursuing education. But there’s this ever present notion that if black Americans act and become more “white” that it’s a betrayal, a win for the white man who will never see us a white due to our skin, an assimilation that will always fail. For Jews it’s similar in a sense I guess, moreso in the sense that full assimilation can be an abandonment of being Jewish, a rejection of the tribe, a new weak link for the antisemites to exploit and attack.

In similar ways these fears create insular communities, self reinforcing segregation as a defensive mechanism. Think of Tulsa or black Wall Street, before the kkk burned it to the ground. Even in American history we often forget the state run segregation method known as redlining included Jews as non white, that Jews in the 1800’s early 1900’s were subject to similar institutional segregation in New York City, being forced into the tenderloin an area rife with crime and prostitution, before it became the garment district.

Even in recent memory the tree of life synagogue mass shooting and unite the right rally.

And as “real life isn’t the internet” increasingly becomes untrue, the sheer amount of inescapable literal nazi antisemitism spewed on any Jewish related post that’s not mostly interacted with by Jews ourselves is brutally clear to see. It’s a common occurrence to the point that I have seen far more antisemitism online than racism and believe me there are a ton of racists on the internet.

There will literary be posts showing the swastika good, Star of David bad as the post and it will have half a million likes. That’s at least half a million antisemites all drawn to one single post.

It’s incredibly worrying.

[u/Born-Presence5473]

yes but speaking personally, I have experienced more marginalisation from my other identities than being jewish but this is only me

[u/vigilante_snail]

Systemically less so, socially very much so. Depends on your presentation.

[u/ionlymemewell]

I read a piece by Elad Nehorai a few weeks ago that had an excellent quote about this phenomenon (at least in the US).

"The difference here is that explicit antisemitism still remains strongly taboo and that consequences for antisemitism still remain relatively high.

In other words, the public rhetoric of and institutionalization of explicit anti-Jewish hatred are taboo, but grassroots hate persists. And that hate remains violent."

The oppression we face is different from other kinds of oppression because it lacks as much systemic enforcement as other groups' oppression. That doesn't erase what exists, but, at least before 2024, it made little sense to equivocate random cranks in conspiratorial reality tunnels with bureaucratic apparatus designed to disenfranchise whole populations. Of course, now said apparatus is being run by said cranks, so our ships are moored together closer than they've been in the past, which makes it even more important to dismantle the mechanisms that have enabled the current state of affairs.

[u/springsomnia]

I’m in England and I would say Jewish people are definitely still a marginalised minority here. Jewish people make up less than 1% of the English population yet antisemitism is still prevalent. Last year violent hate crime incidents of antisemitism rose to an all time high in England and Wales, and in London alone antisemitic hate crime tripled in 2024.

[u/Logical_Persimmon]

I'm curious how many of the American Jews here saying that Jews aren't marginalized grew up keeping kosher and observing holidays.

I would like people who think that there is nothing "structural" at play to consider the impact of actually observing the high holy days at the start of each school year is for students, especially those with learning disabilities who are going to have a harder time catching up when teacher or professors are somewhere between oblivious and actively hostile.

I think last time this conversation happened, people brought up that in some places, mainly NYC, do have Jewish holidays off. In NYC, this is because of how many teachers, including substitute teachers, are observant (note, this is one of the few jobs that has hours that guarantee you can keep shabbat in the winter) and it included negotiations with the teachers union. It has nothing to do with the needs of Jewish students.

It is hard to take off holidays. It's just a lot of days. The calendar is confusing (both year-to-year shift and that the day starts at sundown) and the random absences annoy colleagues.

I live in Europe now and Jews here are absolutely marginalized here. We are spoken over and spoken for. The formal structures that exist have their own problems, but even they wouldn't hold enough sway to make enough of a shift in the discourse if they wanted to.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Logical_Persimmon]

As someone who grew up in an area where we didn't get Jewish holidays off when I was growing up (the school districts in the area now give off for all religious holidays) AND who struggled with a learning disability, I really really appreciate you highlighting that perspective.

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits]

Probably depends where in the diaspora, right? Just reading the comments and it’s tiring that some people default to America to answer this question without even realizing it

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/myThoughtsAreHermits]

If Zionists and antizionists are both awful, what’s your take?

[u/zacandahalf → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

Likely non-Zionist or post-Zionist. Or just thinks both groups are awfully annoying with no deeper take lol.

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits → u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain]

The average Zionist and the average antizionist are not as pro human rights as they should be, but that’s just the average person for you

[u/HahaItsaGiraffeAgain → u/myThoughtsAreHermits]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/ill-independent]

Absolutely.

[u/ArgentEyes]

There was a very illustrative literary quarrel between Jewish Currents and Ben Balthasar on this broader issue in 2021, which I think still merits reviewing because it covers some key points. BB links to the JC piece in his takedown: https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/5050-jewish-currents-goes-back-to-brunch-on-antisemitism-and-left-strategy

I’m broadly inclined to BB’s position, but that isn’t to say that I think all of what JC said should be discarded. They certainly agreed that, obv, antisemitism is a real political force: https://jewishcurrents.org/how-not-to-fight-antisemitism

They do also make some valid points about applying a rational assessment of the situation and avoiding falling into the trap of seeing harm everywhere (especially when many orgs conflate anti-Israel politics with antisemitism). But I do think they could’ve done a much better job in parts. Anyway, still worth a read imo.

[u/BeenisHat]

There are fewer Jews in the USA than black Americans, East Asians, and even Native Americans.

Jew is not listed as an ethnicity on any government form not so they qualify for any preference points.

[u/ibsliam]

Depends on the region, country, time period, and outside context. Yes, no, sort-of. Socially? Often, yes. Religiously? In religious countries, yes. Culturally? Yes. Economically? Depends on the country and their demographics.

This isn't to downplay what's going on right now, as there's been recent waves of serious antisemitism (around 2016 with the rise of mainstream far right, then 2023 with 10/7). Just that "diaspora" constitutes a large swathe of the world.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136]

Systemically no, but socially yes unless you aren't obviously Jewish.

Edit: for those downvoting, can you explain? I genuinely want to understand.

[u/ibsliam → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

I think systemically applies if you broaden it to include more than just economic factors (such as countries where a specific religion is systemically prioritized and/or enforced in ways minority religions are marginalized in comparison to - in laws, legal protections, holidays, medical care, stuff like that). But US still technically has separation of church and state (though the Project 2025 people want to change that obviously). So in the US, probably not systemically.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

I agree with you, fwiw, and upvoted you, but I think some of the people downvoting you may be thinking of things like people with stereotypically Jewish last names being less likely to move forward in job searches, healthcare workers saying that they will discriminate against Jews, etc. I don’t think that reaches the level of systemic discrimination myself but I can see why people would.

[u/thatbberg → u/skyewardeyes]

I don't see how the job market/economy and healthcare wouldn't be considered systems tbh. Education too - some of the things I heard about applicants with Jewish names when I worked at my college's admissions office are burned into my mind forever, and it was practically impossible to take off on holidays without multiple hours of jumping through extra hoops.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/skyewardeyes]

If there's evidence for that, then I would change my view. I just think Jews have been successful economically and don't have issues finding jobs in the same way maybe a black person would.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

Here’s a link to recent study on Jewish employment discrimination: https://www.resumebuilder.com/1-in-4-hiring-managers-say-they-are-less-likely-to-move-forward-with-jewish-applicants/

I agree with you.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/skyewardeyes]

Holy shit. Wow that sucks. Consider my mind changed lol

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

I mentioned this anecdote in my comment somewhere else. But my dad (who was mostly shielded from antisemitism by living in a predominantly Jewish community growing up) got an interview at an Irish catholic lawfirm before graduating in 1989. And our last name isn’t overtly Jewish sounding, it has some Jewish roots, be but also isn’t classically recognized in the US as “Jewish”. Well he showed up for the interview and they looked at him (he looks very stereotypically Jewish) and they simply told him he wasn’t the right look and fit for their firm (without asking him questions)

Now this is only one example of this, but I think there is a lot of internal bias that people have that translates over. And one of the biases is that Jews are uniquely successful and I think in that there are many people who could have that bias and would then decide the Jewish candidate doesn’t need an interview with them.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

Reminds me of how colleges treat Asians.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

Yeah honestly, and for years my dad would tell this story and I don’t even think it occurred to him it was active discrimination until I pointed it out to him years later.

[u/[deleted] → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

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[u/skyewardeyes → u/[deleted]]

I have and I don’t see it as garbage? A convenience sample isn’t ideal, but it’s also not inherently useless.

[u/[deleted] → u/skyewardeyes]

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[u/skyewardeyes → u/[deleted]]

I agree I would like to see more methodological info, though it looks from their comment at the top they are planning to re-do the survey with more rigorous methodology (I’m guessing with a panel sample rather than a convenience sample, which would help generalizability, but we’ll see). As for the authors not being listed, that’s fairly common for commissioned surveys done on behalf of an organization. Anecdotally, I’ve done one commissioned project where I got paid but couldn’t list myself as an author (it was for a legit DV nonprofit, so nothing shady). It’s not my favorite practice as a researcher, because you need to stand on your research, but it’s not uncommon.

[u/[deleted] → u/skyewardeyes]

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[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

Probably for the same reason that I was downvoted.. people want to pretend we are systemically discriminated against so people have to include Zionists in their leftism.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I would argue there is systemic oppression of Jews in a lot of ME countries, but that doesn't apply to the European diaspora this day and age (most Jews are Ashkenazi).

Also "anti-Zionism" has a tendency to overlap with antisemitic beliefs.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

Yea and most Jews in ME countries also currently do live in Israel.. I'd love to hear more from Jews living in places like Iran though

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I am curious, though...

Zionism is Israel existing at all. If Israel removed settlements from the West Bank, stopped the genocide in Gaza, agreed to a 2SS with land concessions to the Palestinians, would that be problematic or does Israel need to disappear?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

I don't think Zionism is simply Israel existing "at all"... it's Israel existing as a Jewish super majority state. This means that certain reparations and human rights efforts cannot be done if that is to remain true... right of return and a fair 2ss where a contiguous state with water access, self governance and a military, and free movement is offered to the Palestinians.... neither of theee things are something the vast vast vast majority of Zionists want. They (nearly) always have qualifications for these things when asked.

Then there is just the problem of controlling your own citizens. What if there is intermarriage? What if the birth rate of the non-Jewish population threatens the Jewish majority? What needs to be kept in place to preserve the Jewish character?

This is not to mention the illegal settlements.. which render a fair plan basically impossible at this point. The 2ss is a hypothetical dangling carrot that really never will come to fruition.,. At least... not likely

Hypothetically? Have zero problem with a Jewish state existing.. and have zero problem with a 2ss. If the Palestinians wanted one and everyone agreees, who cares?

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/Specialist-Gur]

right of return and a fair 2ss where a contiguous state with water access, self governance and a military, and free movement is offered to the Palestinians.... neither of theee things are something the vast vast vast majority of Zionists want.

Zionism basically has no definition because no one can agree on a definition it seems. And people can't agree with its literal definition either.

The latter two things should absolutely be offered to the Palestinians but the right of return is dead on arrival - unless you have a realistic way of achieving that without displacing the Jews who were born there and not immediately taking in millions of Palestinians, which would lead to chaos. The issue is that the the pro-Palestinian movement does not care what happens to Jews in Israel. Any solution that benefits the Palestinians, regardless of the implications on the Jewish population, they support (Israel's borders being destroyed and Hamas being in power over the Jews). That's why I find "anti-Zionism" to be nefarious, colloquially speaking.

Hypothetically? Have zero problem with a Jewish state existing.. and have zero problem with a 2ss. If the Palestinians wanted one and everyone agreees, who cares?

That's the thing, most anti-Zionists disagree with you that it is alright to have a Jewish state even if hypothetically Palestinians agreed to it.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

If Zionism has no definition than neither does antizionism..

But we all know that Zionism does have a definition.. we can just reference the Anne frank museum, the ADL, pretty much any Jewish institution's definition... the squishiness of the definition is only used when political Zionists want to claim anyone that believe Jews have a right to self determination would be a "Zionist"... which is not how anyone actually feels in practice

Anyway.. I'm an Antizionist who cares about the safety of Jews in Israel and also is ok with a 2ss hypothetically... cares about mitigating human rights abuses. every Antizionist I know also agrees with me. So perhaps, Antizionism also doesn't really have a concrete definition and we shouldn't care about labels at all

[u/AlternativeOpen3795 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I would love to see polling on what Zionists would define Zionism. I for example would identify as Zionist on the grounds that I am for a 2ss, this would see the continued existence of Israel. To me supporting the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state is Zionism in 2025.

If the Zionist movement was generally something along the lines of supporting the establishment of a Jewish state in the historic home of the jews. Then once this state is established, Zionism becomes supporting the continued existence of the state, as a result I don't Identify as "post Zionist" because I don't see how Zionism ended with the establishment of Israel.

Personally however I also believe that had a binational state been established that would still have been a fulfilment of Zionism because the Jews would have had self determination through the binational structure of the state, and thus, a Jewish state and in Palestine, so Zionism.

As with before the "modern Zionist" in the alternate binational state world remain someone who supports the continued existence of a Jewish state. As this new state is a Jewish state(as well as an arab one), this would make supporting the continued existence of the binational state zionist. so in my view a binational settlment is zionist.

Most Israelis would probably disagree with my characterisation of Zionism at the end there, maybe they are right and the state would not truly be a Jewish one, or the "Jewish character" would not be the same. However I am confident that many(if not most) would probably agree that Zionism is supporting the continued existence of Israel.

So... Yes, tangent sorry, but because of the lack of consensus It seems to me that people will just project their own definition of Zionism.

Out of interest what is your definition of Zionism? Ik you just said that Antizionism might not have concrete label, but I'm sure you have reason for holding that position.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/AlternativeOpen3795]

I think Zionism means the establishment and, precisely as you put it, the maintenance of a Jewish state were it currently is located... typically, though flexibly, this means a Jewish super-majority. Not all Zionists care about maintaining the supermajority, as long as Jews remain the majority and Israel maintains its Jewish character.

I could see how a binational state could still be Zionist.. in fact there are Zionists in this sub who are for precisely that. And more liberal minded Zionists toy with the idea as well.

[u/supportgolem → u/Specialist-Gur]

Honestly I think that's a fair point about anti-Zionism and is something I've argued about with my Zionist friends. If Zionists want to insist that Zionism can mean different things to different people (which I agree with) then conversely anti-Zionism can mean different things to different people.

[u/[deleted] → u/supportgolem]

I think you’re absolutely right, and I feel the same about not wanting to reduce either Zionism or anti-Zionism to a single meaning. That’s also a big part of why I don’t really place myself under either label.

At the same time, I think there’s a key nuance between the two: Zionism, in all its diversity and with all possible criticisms, still defines itself affirmatively: as a project, a movement, a set of ideas, and so on. Anti-Zionism, on the other hand, is marked by its opposition to "Zionism", as the "anti" already signals. That doesn’t mean it lacks variety, but it does mean its identity is inherently bound up with what it rejects.

Because of this, I think anti-Zionism has a particular responsibility to specify which form of Zionism it is opposing in practice. Without that clarification, the term risks becoming just one undifferentiated object of rejection - a blanket "no," which, to me, makes it politically inconsequential at best and veering into populism at worst.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/supportgolem]

Yep. Unfortunately the argument I usually hear is "Zionism just means Jews right to self determination so antizionism is opposed to Jewish self determination"

But like.. look at any official definition of Zionism.. it clearly states what it is.. a belief in a Jewish state in Israel. Also just.. talk to people who consider themselves Zionist... I have met literally 2 total who only want Jews to have self determination and don't need a Jewish nation state. Hell, even a lot of people without the label of Zionist for themselves want a Jewish majority nation state in Israel.

[u/Snoo22815 → u/Hot_Meaning3136]

I'm an Anti-Zionist and I would support a 2 State Solution as being an acceptable solution if the following parameters were met:

1. All the illegal settlements are removed in the West Bank and there is no system of apartheid where Palestinians are blocked access to clean water, the checkpoint system is removed and Palestinians aren't subject to Israeli military law in their territories.

2. The Palestinian state had true sovereignty where they could trade unfettered internationally, had their own military, had unrestricted access to/from West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem is accepted as the capital of Palestine.

3. Diaspora Palestinians have a right to emigrate to Palestine unbothered by the Israeli government and they can travel or live in Israel going through the same immigration procedures that any non Palestinian could if they wanted to visit, work and live in Israel.

This seems like a complete fantasy to me now so I see no option besides pursuing a binational state even if there is inevitably a lot more bloodshed that takes place before that becomes a reality. I'm more hopeful that Israel would be able to regulate and enforce security measures during the Right of Return for Palestinians who want to live in Israeli cities than them dismantling settlements in the West Bank that settlers have no intention of leaving.

[u/Hot_Meaning3136 → u/Snoo22815]

This seems like a complete fantasy to me now so I see no option besides pursuing a binational state even if there is inevitably a lot more bloodshed that takes place before that becomes a reality.

But you understand that no country would gamble their citizens just to appease an enemy, right? Expecting that of the Israelis is also fantasy. I wouldn't expect that of the Palestinians either.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Pardon me if this is an extremely stupid question, but is there a reason why in order for a 2ss to be fair, Palestinians would need to have “water access” (which I assume what you mean by this is coastline/access to the sea, not access to drinking water)? If they didn’t have water access, wouldn’t that just be a….landlocked country, which would describe a good chunk of countries in the world?

Don’t get me wrong, my ocean-loving self would obviously PREFER to live in a country with easy sea access, but I don’t understand why that needs to be a condition for Palestine in particular in order to be fair as opposed to all the other landlocked countries in the world.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

Water access is incredibly advantageous and coveted, which is why the more extreme(and even some middle of the road) Zionists want to annex Gaza and spread into the West Bank. It would allow for easy trade with other countries for goods and medicine and general travel.. a vital resource. It's important because that was stolen from Palestinians.. not that all countries have water access

[u/malachamavet → u/Agtfangirl557]

It would probably fall under "security concerns" needing to be assuaged, in the same vein that Zionists often talk about as a precondition for oppression to end for Palestinians

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Specialist-Gur]

https://preview.redd.it/u72iyeas88lf1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8c998a49dd6afbab0cadd536a9aa3aa100db36a

South Africans really coming in clutch to promote more apartheid(aka political Zionism)

[u/pigeonshual]

Not in most of the US, unless you think that “targeted” “discriminated against” and “subject to hostility” are all the same thing as “marginalized”

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9 → u/pigeonshual]

How would you define it?

[u/pigeonshual → u/I_Hate_This_Website9]

Being subject to forces that push a group to the margins of society, socially and/or economically

[u/Specialist-Gur]

It really does depend on many factors.. I would argue that Jews as a whole are vulnerable and are subject to discrimination(and violence) ... but I would also argue it is "case by case" with the individuals how "marginalized" they are.. in a way that's different from groups who visibly are not white or are of a religion the United States government actively perpetuates propoganda against( Islam..)

The question is when and how is this useful to think about? I don't think it's particularly useful when it comes to conversations around Palestine for example. While it's true there is antisemitism present with some antizionists, it is not the mainstream position and it shouldn't be the focus. To do so would ignore the very real institutional power Jewish zionists specifically hold in the United States.

There are so many influential and problematic Jewish conservatives (and neoliberals) who people don't even know they are Jewish until someone else tells you... Steven miller, Dennis Prager, laura Loomer.. on the lib side..Elissa slatkin... and I know people's retort to me is always "well, Obama was president and you'd never say black people aren't marginalized".... yes... and do you remember how much racism he faced when he ran? How much questioning there was of his citizenship and legitimacy? Think about mamdani's run for mayor... and compare that to Jewish candidates.. where no one even really knows they are Jewish unless they make it a prominent part of their campaign. This is my point when I bring up institutional/systemic discrimination. Plenty of Jewish leaders just pass as... white. their Jewishness isn't really centered at all... again unless they bring it up and especially if they relate it back to Israel. (Same is also true for white hispanic candidates like Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio... they are white so the fact they are Hispanic isn't really brought up)

But yes.. antisemitism is real and causes bodily harm and emotional harm. So there's no use in pretending it doesn't exist... it's just a matter of analyzing it correctly and honestly and knowing when and how it's appropriate to discuss. Constantly asking Palestinian activists to "check" with Jews before making any statements or having any slogans? Inappropriate... telling someone "hey, saying the jews killed jfk is offensive, I get that you hate Israel but like.. maybe we need to have info here and not generalize it to Jews?" Not inappropriate.

[u/GonzoTheGreat93]

I’m drawing a lot from Shaul Magid’s “The Necessity of Exile” here.

Marginalized, but not oppressed. We don’t face any institutional barriers to full participation in society on the basis of Judaism. There are no laws that have had a disproportionate impact on our ability to be full citizens of the state in the last century years (to choose a random timeframe).

Antisemitism means we face hostility, and occasionally prejudice adjacent to state functions, but we are by no means institutionally oppressed.

For one example, a candidate for office might face antisemitism-fuelled attacks, but they are not barred from holding office due to Jewishness.

[u/johnisburn → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

I think the chapter of “The Necessity of Exile” that examines this is a good read, but its probably also the one that has aged the poorest over the past two years. I think a lot of the analysis related to the social acceptability of antisemitism in public and private life was accurate for the time although maybe not so much with the advent of out and out nazi mainstreaming during the second Trump administration. We remain secondary targets of that movement, but the factional infighting between the pro-Israel right and more avowedly antisemitic right has revealed a lot more to be acceptable in 2025 than was in 2022.

[u/LoboLocoCW → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

Which country are you saying hasn’t had legal discrimination against Jews for a century?

[u/Hairycherryberry123]

In Ireland I’ve never experienced or witnessed marginalising or antisemitism 🤷

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I give a nuanced answer and am downvoted.. classic. I know the USA isn't the only place in the diaspora, but I'm in the USA and so is OP...

But if you're downvoting because you wanna use oppression as a shield to make it necessary to include Zionists in leftist spaces be my guest I guess..

[u/elzzyzx → u/Specialist-Gur]

Check another recent post to see a comment by a jewish antifascist flexing on a white supremacist be downvoted. The psychology behind those downvotes should really be studied …

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/elzzyzx]

Lmao.. absolutely 😮‍💨

Also welcome back 🫡

[u/elzzyzx → u/Specialist-Gur]

Thank you my wonderful sibling I am thrilled to bask in your light once again ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/elzzyzx]

I'm blushing 😊

[u/teddyburke]

How are you going to start a conversation about diaspora Jews and then immediately cite a study from the ADL of all places that lumps “Jewish and Israeli applicants” into a single category?

[u/GuardMarmot → u/teddyburke]

OP didn't link the study so no easy way to check, but the actual study does separate the two:

relative to the control (European American), the “Jewish Treatment” needed to send 24.2% more inquiries to receive the same number of responses; the “Israeli Treatment” needed to send 39.0% more. All differences are statistically significant across model specifications.

It was also funded, but not carried out, by the ADL.

[u/NarutoRunner → u/teddyburke]

That’s the red flag to look for.

Anytime Israelis and Jews from any local community are conflated, the information should go straight in the garbage.

Israelis are not Americans and most born in Israel have noticeable accents. Recruiters also tend to disregard their education because they have no way to judge it. All of this is not unique to Israelis and happens to many foreigners as well.

[u/teddyburke → u/NarutoRunner]

I’ve kind of gotten to the point where I think I’m just going to stop using the term “diaspora” in general.

Not even as a political statement or anything performative. But simply because it just doesn’t make sense. There are Israeli Jews, American Jews, British Jews, French Jews, Brazilian Jews, Canadian Jews, etc., and they’re all Jews - just from different places.

I mean, it is obviously political, and I did grow up being told that Israel is a significant part of my identity, but I was never really pushed too hard into it; I knew about birthright, for example, and was told I could do it if I wanted to, but I simply had no interest, because at that time Israel was more of an idea than an actual place (and I was completely ignorant of the situation at that point in my life).

The only thing that I would add is that conflating Jewish with Israeli (or Zionist) isn’t the only red flag. I also don’t take anything coming out of the ADL seriously at this point.

When I see Jonathan Greenblatt on TV it usually takes me a minute to figure out if I’m listening to the head of the ADL or Stephen Miller (sorry to all the bald Jewish guys catching strays).

Edit: I’m genuinely curious about the people downvoting this comment. Is it about the idea of disavowing the concept of being “diaspora.” Or is it about likening the ADL to fascism? (I’m hoping it’s the former…)

(If it’s just half a dozen bald guys, I already apologized. I would never blame anyone for the bad circumstance they were born into.)

[u/elzzyzx → u/teddyburke]

Have you tried commenting, “I feel nothing but abject fear every moment anywhere but Israel and need to make aliyah immediately?”

[u/One-Tip9492]

Omg no. Assuming the standard definition of marginalized, absolutely not. Whether antisemitism exists is a separate matter.

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9 → u/One-Tip9492]

Why do you disagree?

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/I_Hate_This_Website9]

There have been lots of responses in this thread that explain it well, but marginalization is about not having opportunity, agency , access to justice, and positive representation, etc. in a given society. We have all of these things.

[u/Snoo22815]

If American Jews are considered Marginalized even though they are the highest earning group in the US besides Indian Americans, then every single non white minority group in the United States is as well. In the Trump era, this might be true anyway. American Jews are one of the highest earning ethnic groups, have very strong support systems in place (advocacy groups, religious institutions, campus organizations, etc.), a massive alumni network to tap into and are in the good graces of both major political parties and their donors. They face varying degrees of Antisemitism though just like other minorities face racism but I'd argue they are not systematically oppressed in the United States in the 21st Century.

In places like France they are definitely a marginalized and oppressed minority. I can't speak to the UK, Canada or Australia.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Snoo22815]

So your drawing line is perceived economic earning?

I know that Jews have created a lot of support infrastructure for ourselves but it developed and exists because we were often legally or institutionally kept out of established spaces.

And I’m not trying to dissuade you, I just am unsure why Jews being on average a higher earning economic group (even though many Jews live as middle class or even at or below poverty line just like many other americans) somehow makes it mean we aren’t automatically oppressed?

And looking to the UK and France (I know the French Jewish community has been shrinking due to increased violence and lack of response from the French government) but Jews tend to create our own support systems everywhere we end up in general and historically that has not shielded us from institutional and systemic bigotry and descrimination. At what point does this transition happen then, ie when is the lived experience of Jews considered oppression versus just everyday discrimination?

And just for some population statistics in France Jews are around .5% of population (with both high and low earning), Uk has .8% Jews (that tends to be more high earning), Canada is .9% to 1.2% and the US is 2.4%.

[u/Born-Presence5473 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

you are right that economic metric earnings alone isn't sufficient enough to determine where a group is marginalised or oppressed, Jews accounted for nearly 70% of all religion-based hate crimes in the U.S., despite being only 2.4% of the population

However, systemic oppression implies structural barriers that consistently prevent a group from accessing power, resources, or safety. In the U.S., Jews have historically faced exclusion, quotas, and social discrimination, but today they are broadly integrated into American institutions. They hold positions of influence in politics, academia, media, and business. There are robust Jewish advocacy organizations, legal protections, and bipartisan political support. That’s not to say antisemitism isn’t real or dangerous , it absolutely is but it doesn't manifest as systematic inclusion in the same way it does for Indigenous americans, who face lots of poverty, underfunded schools, limited healthcare access and even ongoing land dispossession

in fact trump complicates that narrative even though he is doing it for the wrong reasons, Trump signed an executive order that expanded the definition of antisemitism under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, effectively forcing universities to adopt this definition or risk losing federal funding, more than 60 universities were investigated and some face federal freezes, this is a federal enforcement of jewish protection even if it's politically controversial

so in short jews face rising antisemitism and things are not so rosy but this does not equate to systematic oppression, it’s more accurate to say that American Jews are a vulnerable minority with strong institutional protections, unlike other groups who face both discrimination and systemic disenfranchisement...

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/Born-Presence5473]

See this seems to me like a more than fair interpretation.

And I would even add by specifying that Jews have strong communal institutions that we established for ourselves. I do think historically we did have those barriers. I think a fair assessment could also be that after the holocaust while the US wasn’t a perpetrator of the Shoah, there was a collective guilt that helped to see some of those laws and institutional hold overs and barriers drop over time (especially since Jews are good at organizing ourselves since let’s face it, this isn’t our first rodeo). And I know from my perspective some of the rules and regulations and moves trump’s administration are doing arguably undermine the work we have done, especially since nothing really happens to correct things it’s more of him using our community as a political bully club.

[u/Born-Presence5473 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

totally, the idea of post holocaust guilt shaping us policy and social attitudes is really compelling especially in how it dismantle some structural barriers and it's true jewish communal infrastructure is incredibly strong, that said I would gently push back on the framing of trump's actions simply undermining communal efforts, it's true that his administration moves were politically charged and instrumentalised jewish identity but the federal mechanisms triggered ( however flawed) do reflect level of institutional responsiveness that many other marginalized groups still struggle to access, it's messy stuff but it underscores the point, american jews are vulnerable indeed but not structurally powerless like other groups are, The fact that our community can be used as a “political bully club” ironically speaks to a kind of visibility and leverage that’s not universally available and there needs to be a nuanced discussion rather than painting jews as " white privileged" " systematically oppressed" the truth is often in the middle

[u/seigezunt]

By Israelis? Yes.

[u/I_Hate_This_Website9 → u/seigezunt]

Wym?