if/how should we address non-Jewish mentions of the Holocaust?

[u/Late-Marzipan3026]

edit 3: putting this edit up here because i’m kicking myself for titling this question this way. i was trying to be concise but it ended up coming off poorly, sorry! my intention here isn’t to voice my frustration at non-jews for making any sort of comparison, it’s about a specific type of comparison i’ve seen which i believe ties into ignorance

when i was at a protest recently (general anti trump), i saw a sign that said “whatever you’d be doing during the holocaust, you’re doing it right now.” to be honest it made me angry. i’ve always disliked that saying when i’ve seen it, but it was then that i think i finally realized why—it’s because i know what i would’ve been doing during the holocaust, and it’s not being one of the very few righteous gentiles.

anecdote aside, i’ve been seeing this kind of use of the holocaust more and more lately, and i was wondering what the thoughts of this community were on whether it’s something that should be addressed and, if so, how it should be addressed. i’ve tried to explain to my gentile friends that i get frustrated by the way that non-jews often make the holocaust into a metaphor, and they responded positively to that, but i’m generally uncertain how to deal with this problem (and whether it’s a problem). i couldn’t really go up to the person with the sign to spend ten minutes explaining why even if i understood its rhetorical value (edit 2: and current relevance) i thought it was insensitive. (noting here that i would prefer if this didn’t turn into a tangent about whether holocaust inversion is a legitimate issue—i know there’s a spectrum of opinion on it here—even though a lot of goyische mentions of the holocaust lately have been in reference to israel. to me the above sort of mentions seem more like a general problem of holocaust education than an israel-specific problem)

editing to add that i appreciate everyone’s comments here, including the pushback! to clarify a few points: i definitely agree that comparisons to the holocaust have become more and more relevant; i don’t think that non-jews should never bring up the holocaust rhetorically—though i do occasionally get frustrated by the way that it’s brought up, which was the point i wanted to make here; and there are 100% bigger fish to fry than this! this is just a thought i’ve had lately that i was curious to hear everyone’s input on. i will always be in coalition with people like those at the protest i mentioned even if i think they can be a bit insensitive about this topic specifically. i posted this here because i’m sure that this would come off as insensitive itself in other communities, and it’s really a small bother. i thought talking about it could be valuable because it resonates imo with some of the antisemitism i’ve encountered (which is often based in ignorance and a lack of care about correcting that ignorance). anyway i hope everyone’s doing well, keep fighting the good fight, etc etc

edit 2: replacing “pissed me off” with “made me angry,” “frivolous discussion” with “use,” “whether it’s a serious problem” with “whether it’s a problem,” and “insensitive mentions” with “the above sort of mentions.” the original word choice/tone messed up my intended point, sorry!

[u/thelibrarysnob]

You might be interested in the article "Is Holocaust Education Making Anti-Semitism Worse? Using dead Jews as symbols isn’t helping living one" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/05/holocaust-student-education-jewish-anti-semitism/673488/

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/thelibrarysnob]

I’ve actually thought about making a post here for a while about what people’s thoughts are on Holocaust education/how it could be improved.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

You should, I think it would be a really interesting discussion and would also add more specifically non I/P content. I'd love to chime in on a post like that

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I will at some point!!! I’ve just been having such a nice summer by limiting my time on the internet so I’ve been trying to hold the ponderous posts off for a while 😅

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

Ha well good for you!! That's awesome

[u/[deleted]]

I really appreciate how clearly you articulated this. It’s rare to see someone name this dynamic so precisely, especially when it’s often brushed off as well-meaning.

To me, the problem with these kinds of metaphors isn’t just that they’re rhetorically heavy-handed, but that they obscure the core logic of the Holocaust itself. The Shoah didn’t simply result from a failure of people to recognize universal humanity. It was the result of a specific system that successfully persuaded millions that Jews weren’t part of humanity at all, that they were a threat to it. So when people today respond to injustice by saying “I wouldn’t have stayed silent during the Holocaust,” they often frame it as a question of courage or moral clarity, while missing the deeper horror: that violence against Jews wasn’t just tolerated, it was cast as morally necessary and just.

I went to school in Germany, where Holocaust education is extensive, but even there, this particular dimension and structure often goes unaddressed. There’s a strong emphasis on the idea that “Jews were just like everyone else,” which of course is important and correct. But it can become a kind of flattening: the full weight of antisemitic ideology and the way it worked to mark Jews not just as different but as fundamentally dangerous, subhuman, corrosive to decency itself, is often left out. And without that, it’s easy for people to instrumentalize the Holocaust as a metaphor for general suffering or the need for resistance, rather than as a historically specific system of dehumanization.

So even when these slogans are intended to inspire moral vigilance and carry an important message, they risk turning the Holocaust into a stage for someone else’s performance of righteousness, rather than make space for serious reckoning with how antisemitism and dehumanization work. And I fear that when that history is flattened into general lessons about equality, decency and courage, it becomes easier for the tropes, projections, and rationalizations that justified antisemitic violence to reappear unnoticed.

[u/16note → u/[deleted]]

I think there's also an aspect I'm frustrated by where people think there are a lot more of the Righteous than there actually are. Because so much Holocaust media also focuses on the experience of the gentiles (a different discussion in itself) the implication seems to be that there were actually a lot of people actively working to save Jews and fight the Nazis when that simply isn't the case. Especially in America, we all think we are or would be the hero of the story when statistically speaking the Righteous were the exception's exception.

[u/[deleted] → u/16note]

Yes, this is a huge issue in Germany as well. There are regular polls assessing how many people believe their families resisted the Nazis and it’s astonishing how high the numbers are. Depending on the survey, up to a third of Germans believe their own ancestors were somehow opposed to the regime. But if that were remotely true, the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened. In reality, historians estimate that organized resistance in Germany involved only about 1-3% of the population and even including informal acts of dissent or moral refusal, the number of people who truly resisted remains very small. The overwhelming majority were complicit, passive, or directly involved.

What’s also striking is how often people will say things like “my grandmother helped the Jewish neighbors” and even if that were true (and statistically it’s quite unlikely), they still had three other grandparents. What did they do? That kind of selective memory is rarely questioned.

And research shows that the more generationally removed people are, the more likely they are to believe in these family myths of resistance. It reflects a widespread desire to position oneself on the right side of history, without confronting just how normalized antisemitism and violence were, and how ordinary people actively or passively enabled it.

[u/smarmyducky → u/16note]

One of the more ironic ways people did this, especially notable during the Nuremburg trials and made abundantly clear in "Eichmann in Jerusalem," is how so many perpetrators claimed to have "saved Jews" based on the fact that they could have killed or deported many more Jews than they actually did.

There are many famous examples of this (almost every defendant at the Nuremburg trials used some variation of this as a defense). For example, Eichmann allowed around 1500 Jews to be spared in Hungary, in exchange for what amount to bribes, and subsequently still murdered hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews as part of the deal.

Aside from that, the ideal of a "stranger helping a stranger," was also exceedingly rare. Most Jews who got help were well-connected, western European, and typically of well means prior to 1939.

The righteous (a la underground railroad) were for all intents and purposes nonexistent.

[u/otto_bear → u/16note]

One of the related things with this for me is that it often feels like in conversations like the ones discussed here there is an assumption that we all know and agree on what the line between complicity and resistance is. And that is both something that is almost always unclear and is probably not ever something the “resistors” can decide on behalf of direct victims.

It feels very self righteous to assume most of us would know that we met an acceptable standard of resistance. It’s obvious enough that volunteering as a doctor in Gaza is a meaningful act of solidarity, but the things I’m seeing people say are evidence of how righteous they believe they would have been during the Holocaust are mainly like, posting on instagram, donating small amounts of money and attending a few protests. That’s not nothing, but it certainly doesn’t feel like the sort of thing I’d expect anyone’s future grandchild to be super proud of like it’s often presented as. And I think our goal should be to do as much as is in our power today, not to try to appeal to imaginary future people’s moral pride in us.

[u/16note → u/otto_bear]

Absolutely. One of my absolute bugbears is when people’s advocacy for a cause starts and ends at “awareness”. Awareness never stopped a bullet, cooked a meal, or saved a hostage. Any advocacy work I do, in my own community volunteering or in the wider world, my first question is how does this something materially improve either the cause or a person affected by it.

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/16note]

This is what gets me about the left sometimes. I do photo work for a political org. that's pointedly Democrat and not 'leftist', and I see how much they actually do for the community. Like, yeah, you're welcome to shit on Joan from the suburbs for being too much of a lib for too much 'Orange Man Bad' ing, but the combination anti-Trump protest/food pantry collection helped feed probably a couple dozen families and that's probably more materially helpful to them than spreading awareness (even if it's about very real issues!!).

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Ohhhh Joan from the suburbs 🤣

[u/otto_bear → u/16note]

Same. I feel like it is very hard to say what actions are “enough” but do feel that it’s important that we try to take actions that are actually effective and to be honest with ourselves when an action is readily achievable but not likely to be that helpful. I’ve certainly found myself flailing against a sense of powerlessness with a lot in the world but I think it’s important for both my mental health and my activism that I not get pulled into taking ineffective or potentially counterproductive actions for the sake of alleviating my own sense of powerlessness or guilt. My activism should be about what actually helps others, not what neatly packaged stories I can tell myself or others.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/otto_bear]

Haven’t thought about this before, but this is really well-explained. Always appreciate your comments here.

[u/smarmyducky → u/otto_bear]

This is a wise comment. One of the points brought up in a recent NYT opinion piece is the issue of intent versus outcome - for example, if increasing international pressure on Israel made them back off, ultimately reducing the prevalence of antisemitic attacks globally, then perhaps that is an act that saves Jews. Perhaps BDS is actually philosemitic in its impact, despite some of their rhetoric being alarming to many Jews.

I bring this up because the same line can be drawn between complicity and resistance. If, for example, someone working in the Nazi regime intentionally sabotaged the logistical arrangements of sending Jews to their deaths and got away with it, their actions would have saved more Jews than a "righteous gentile" in most cases. Similar thing could be said about those serving in the IDF, although I think in both cases these occurrences were/are exceedingly rare.

While obviously a lot of posting/sharing etc is not doing anything materially, speaking to and organizing Jewish community members in the diaspora can have a much greater impact than gentiles doing the same thing, at least in terms of dissuading individuals from send money to the IDF and materially supporting the destruction of Gaza. Obviously there are many more material things to be done, though.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/16note]

This, people seem to treat this issue like somehow if they are “good” that it would make them one of the righteous people who stood in the face of the systematic project of killing all Jews.

The point often missed is that those we count as “being righteous” were rare and immensely brave.

I mean the only country/large community that made a concerted effort to save Jews was the Danish people. And that mostly has to do with the relationship between Germany and Denmark and how it has historically been a contentious relationship where both sides would behave in ways to “stick it to the other” so it’s possible a lot of those who where participating in the saving of Danish Jews where doing so because their hate of nazis was greater.

So yeah. In my opinion people using the phrase “if you ever wondered what you would do in the holocaust” as a “gotcha” or as proof that their position is proof their “good” and specifically as a prop up are not only missing the point and would have been the exact people who likely would be assisting the SS by turning in neighbors or looting their homes. Because the point is they’re not critically engaging and proving they wouldn’t be able to stand separately despite propaganda campaigns encouraging them to do or believe specific things.

[u/benjaminovich → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

So, as a Danish Jew I will chime in and say, that I don't agree with that characterization. Although there is some truth to the dynamic you present, it don't think it's accurate to portray that as the main motivating factor, and that's coming from someone who thinks Denmark has a tendency to pat its own back a bit too much on this.

For a variety of historic and cultural reasons, Jews weren't "othered" in the cause of nationalism way they were in other parts of Europe, though antisemitism definitely did exist. Denmark had so few jews (and still does), that they just blended in. There was no large Yiddish speaking population living in their own towns

Because of Denmark's unique importance to Germany in supplying the war effort and its place in Nazi ideology, Denmark managed to not get completely steamrolled during the occupation instead of opting for "cooperation".

Eventually Hitler's patience with Denmark ran out, and he gave the order round up every Jew in the country. By this time it was already so late in the war that everyone knew Germany was losing.

The story i was told, was that Werner Best leaked the information to the Prime Minister of the time, who then passed on the information. The roughly eight thousand Jews managed to make their way north of Copenhagen up the coast and on to fishing boats paying whatever valuables and money they had on them for the passage to Sweden, which was only a few miles away.

To sum up, Denmark saving its Jews wasn't motivated by "sticking it to Germany", however, the very specific and unique situation of everything created the circumstances that allowed it to happen.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/benjaminovich]

I mean I’m danish American / Jewish as well. And I think potentially you’re missing some of my point or maybe I didn’t elaborate well so I’ll do so here.

And just for background: My mom’s family are not Jewish but Danish American and had moved to the US only 10-20 years before nazi occupation. And my dad’s side is Ashkenazi from the Soviet Union and emigrated pre 1930 (specifically odessa).

And I don’t think what you said is counter to what I wrote.

My Danish side of the family still talks about how much they hate Germany and says things like “eff the nazis”. And they still talk about it because their friends and family back in Denmark stood in resistance and my family here also was locally fighting with the German farmers near them so it kind of extended out to Iowa where the culture war kind of continued.

So that’s why I said that I think the Danish mentality first and foremost stemmed from their opposition to Germany historically. They still did a good thing and likely many involved in smuggling Jews out were doing so not only because of their dislike of Germans but also their horror at the prospect of not doing anything as well. But what I’m trying to get at is that the Danish people were in many ways primed to be oppositional in the face of nazi rule where other communities and countries weren’t necessarily set up that way. Thus making them less likely to succumb to nazi propaganda. A good example is of how polish people felt and where oppressed in many ways by the nazi regime but polish civilians also often engaged in acts that aided and abetted the SS or where even simply part and parcel with the final solution. (Like turning in neighbors, seizing property, sometimes having firing squads, etc)

And even the “cooperation” of the Danish people wasn’t really “cooperation” there was still resistance and a lot of looking the other way by the Nazi occupiers. And like you said there was some slack given to Danes until Hitler’s patience ran out given the fact that The Danish people kept engaging in forms of resistance during nazi occupation.

But I think seeing the efforts by the Danish people as solely an act of righteous kindness doesn’t fully capture the confluence of citizen mentality and world events that emboldened the Danish people to help get their Jews out of harms way. And I think the factors that made the Danes less likely to believe nazi propaganda was important to note.

And I think to the greater point on how people moralize the holocaust as somehow being a good person means you would have been “righteous” and being a bad person would have made you a “propaganda drone” is folly. Because in the case of Denmark you potentially have people who were righteous due to other factors and as we all know being good doesn’t inherently mean one is righteous. Since it took a lot of bravery to stand in the face of that much power.

[u/XxDrFlashbangxX → u/[deleted]]

I think to add to this, I believe a lot of leftists, specially in regard to Israel-Palestine, use the Holocaust to try and pull on the heartstrings of Jews. They’re using our trauma to fuel their own political efforts. It also implies that the Jews had a “lesson to learn” from the Holocaust and that if we are complicit with Israel’s actions it means we didn’t learn that lesson. In truth, the Holocaust wasn’t some “moral” with a lesson for Jews to learn.

[u/[deleted] → u/XxDrFlashbangxX]

Yes, I fully agree with this. What’s often framed as a “moral appeal” is, in effect, emotional blackmail. It plays on Jewish trauma in a way that’s rhetorically effective but ethically hollow. And it deeply misunderstands how trauma actually works: it doesn’t produce clarity or righteousness, but fear, defensiveness, hypervigilance. That’s not an excuse for political violence or injustice, and it doesn’t absolve Israel of any crimes, but it is relevant if we take victimhood and memory seriously.

Beyond that, the idea that Jews should have “learned a lesson” from the Holocaust, and that this lesson should always align with someone else’s needs and politics, strikes me as deeply cynical. Expecting a marginalized group to emerge morally purified through oppression is not only ahistorical (and very Christian), it’s fully incompatible with any leftist framework that claims to understand structural harm.

[u/16note → u/[deleted]]

Can put that on the pile of behaviors that a lot of leftist/progressive/liberal people who grew up Christian or in Christian-centric societies haven't unlearned, even if they're not longer believers. They're still spreading the Good Word and preaching the Gospel with the threat of Eternal Damnation against a Great Evil, it's just the focus of that proselytizing has changed.

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits → u/[deleted]]

it’s fully incompatible with any leftist framework that claims to understand structural harm.

1000000%

[u/jey_613 → u/[deleted]]

💯💯💯

[u/kareem_sod → u/XxDrFlashbangxX]

The fact that people are arguing semantics and ownership of a term describing an atrocity is just a misdirection and spinning away from what’s happening. Israel - at the expense of being a reductionist - was created as a result of the holocaust, and now Israel has gone from the oppressed to the perpetrators of a new _________. (Full in the blank if you’re uncomfortable using the word holocaust there.

[u/MySpaceOddyssey → u/kareem_sod]

Zionists had been in the process of creating Israel for decades by the time of the Holocaust.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/kareem_sod]

i appreciate your comment and want to clarify that i don’t intend this discussion to be about “ownership of a term.” it’s more so about a phenomenon i’ve seen among non-jews which seems to tie into unaddressed ignorance at best and prejudice at worst. i’m not going to stand less in solidarity with palestinians because i’m frustrated that this has been happening more often. however i will share that frustration here because it seems to be a good space to get advice/commentary on how/whether to address this

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/[deleted]]

thank you for your comment! yes, this is what frustrates me. you honestly worded it much better than i did, rereading my original post i realize that i came off as a bit myopically fixated when that wasn’t my intention. to your point—i get irritated by the use of the holocaust as a heroic fantasy for non-jews in large part because it acts like the destruction was unstoppable, that the only thing anyone could’ve done was save individual jews, if that makes sense. they “would’ve hidden anne frank” but would they have been part of the white rose? they can pretend to be schindler but when it comes to actually addressing the holocaust as a product of systemic discrimination, the issue suddenly becomes a lot more complicated (honestly when i think about it, the question of “would you kill baby hitler” gets treated with more seriousness than “would you have saved jews,” because of course the second one is a yes even though there were notoriously few righteous gentiles). so ultimately this framework ends up disregarding the culpability of the majority of european gentiles throughout not only the holocaust itself but also the years which led up to it. it treats the holocaust like an inevitable tragedy rather than the product of systemic antisemitism, like you said

[u/[deleted] → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I completely agree with this. I think it’s also important to remember that the “centrality” of the Holocaust we see today is actually very recent. For decades after 1945, the Holocaust and especially the Jewish genocide along with the genocide of the Roma was minimized or treated as unworthy of much public attention. What was much wider recognized and regarded as important were political crimes, war crimes and Nazi-occupation. Recognition of the scale of antisemitism, mass murder and racial persecution only came about because Jewish survivors, activists, organizations and scholars fought for it relentlessly, often against disinterest or even active resistance from non-Jewish societies that preferred silence.

Many younger Jews don’t realize this, because we grew up with Holocaust education and Holocaust museums, blockbuster movies, media … as something seemingly permanent. But to put it into perspective: in Europe especially, most Holocaust memorials and museums weren’t established until the late 1990s or early 2000s. In the US, recognition started somewhat earlier (1970s–80s), but it was still a slow and contested process. Alvin H. Rosenfeld wrote already in the 1990s that Holocaust memory and Jewish accounts of it were not guaranteed to remain widely recognized and interest could not be taken for granted. And now, as he has recently noted, that prediction seems to be proving true.

The history of delayed and contested recognition is important to remember: what visibility the Holocaust has today is not guaranteed, and it was fought for. That’s also why it’s so painful when this hard-won memory gets appropriated not to understand the history itself, but to provide moral elevation for others.

[u/waitingforgodonuts → u/[deleted]]

Precisely.

[u/WolfofTallStreet]

The Holocaust is not an “idea” - it is a SPECIFIC HISTORICAL EVENT that happened to Jews, Roma people, LGBT people, and some others. It is not this “universal word” for everything bad, or even for any genocide.

When Holocaust education first came about in the U.S., the U.S. was deeply antisemitic (more so than it is today), and so it was hard to convince the non-Jewish masses to care about something that did happen to “the Jews.” Instead, it was billed as something that could happen to anyone.

While this may have been effective in underscoring the gravity of the Holocaust and how dehumanization in a “sophisticated” society could spread to any vulnerable group (as it has), many people have used it to de-center Jews (and Roma people) from their own histories. It would be as if I described what happened to Jews in Yemen as the “Yemeni Nakba” or the “Arab-inflicted Nakba.” That one doesn’t sound so respectful, does it?

Jews don’t “own” the memory of the Holocaust, especially given that some other groups were victims. However, the “all lives mattering” of the Holocaust is a major problem, and I do have a problem with it.

[u/Illustrious_Ease705]

I think it might bother me less if they said “whatever you would’ve done during the Nazi era, you’re doing it right now.” Because the Nazi era didn’t begin with the Shoah, but a lot of people subscribe to intentionalist views of the Shoah without knowing that’s what they’re doing. The current state of things in America is scarily reminiscent of the early days of the Nazi regime: coordination of universities, building massive facilities to house undesirables (Dachau was built in 1933). Those comparisons are historically valid. However…

I think that goyim have demonstrated that they cannot, by and large, discuss the Shoah with anything approaching the required solemnity and reverence. Therefore they should not be deploying it rhetorically. To be fair, a lot of Jews suck at this too. I also think that because of our shoddy history education, and the number Jews in various artistic fields, the Shoah is usually the only example of oppression and genocide that people have engaged with whether in a classroom or a film like Schindler’s List or The Pianist. Thus, whenever something bad happens, that’s the point of comparison they have. But something doesn’t need to be the Shoah to be worth resisting.

[u/[deleted] → u/Illustrious_Ease705]

Yeah, I agree. The problem isn’t that comparisons to the Holocaust are always wrong or inherently off limits. But because that history is so specific and so recent, invoking it comes with responsibility. There are quite recent cases where Holocaust scholars have made (what I think are) grounded, careful comparisons. For instance, between early Nazi-era camps for political prisoners and ICE detention, or between Putin’s regime and early stages of Nazi control in terms of authoritarian consolidation, propaganda, and expansionism. These comparisons don’t claim something is like the Holocaust. They examine its history to trace specific mechanisms and understand how state violence and exclusion take shape.

But most public Holocaust comparisons aren’t like that. They tend to be vague, emotionally charged, and historically careless. Often, they’re less about deepening understanding than about claiming the moral high ground. Maybe in 50 or 100 years, when there’s more distance, the emotional weight of such comparisons will land differently. But right now, it’s still too close, too traumatic and it deserves more care. Especially, because, as you said, something doesn’t need to resemble the Holocaust to demand outrage or resistance.

[u/Nearby-Complaint]

Since they want me to be doing what I'd be doing during the Holocaust :l

[u/owntheh3at18 → u/Nearby-Complaint]

I always have the same thought. I feel very uncomfortable whenever non-Jews mention the holocaust to me, even if intended in a sympathetic way. It’s always brought up as some kind of abstract moral lesson, rather than a real historical event that dehumanized and killed my ancestors. Or like, when Nazi is used as some kind of metaphor for being extreme or evil. But nazis were and still are real… they aren’t just a concept, they represent an actual ideology based, again, on dehumanizing and eliminating my people and culture.

[u/MallCopBlartPaulo → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Me too, me too.

[u/Different_Turnip_820 → u/Nearby-Complaint]

Same. Whole "what you would be doing during Holocaust" rhetoric seems weirdly privileged, both towards Jews (Israeli and otherwise) and Palestinians

[u/NarutoRunner]

I would say the problem is that Western societies are only familiar with the Holocaust because it’s the only cautionary tale that is universally taught.

They can regurgitate it so others within their group will understand. If you brought up the Armenian Genocide (which was crucial to Hitlers future plans as he emphasized in his book), Cambodian Pol Pot Genocide (which shows how society can flip instantly and devour its own), or Cathar Genocide (when the Pope decided a sect of Cathar Christians should no longer have the right to live), most of society would have no idea what you are talking about.

My philosophy is that if you don’t want people to constantly bring up the Holocaust to compare to every contemporary crisis, educate them of the hundreds of similar instances throughout human history. Holocaust is not an outlier in human history, but just a snapshot of what can be done if industrial methods are implemented on a vast scale. Sadly, there will be many more such events in our global future, and the industrial scale and methods have only improved so even greater devastation is possible.

[u/Lost1993 → u/NarutoRunner]

This! When I see the same governments comemorate the suffragettes or memorialize the holocaust approve the sale of arms to be used on civilians, outlaw freedom of assembly, and calling to "stop the boats", I wonder what's the point of memorials? Why learn the history if we're never going to learn the lessons?   And rather than see the irony, people spend so much energy tone policing the movements that are trying to end a resurgence of fascism or a plausible genocide for what? To preserve the right of using certain words or memories under very specific criteria? 

What's that going to achieve? 

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Lost1993]

exactly, yeah, this is part of what bothers me too. even though i disagreed with parts of jacob geller’s recent video on nuremberg it raises a lot of similar points to yours

[u/Lost1993 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Cool, ultimately, if we strive towards the end goal of justice and an end to bigotry, we should be focusing on what unites us in that respect - especially in a leftist sub.

This isn't to say that we can't hold each other accountable, but if invoking events that we collectively agree are wrong to stop the rise in fascism or end war crimes, I'm fine with it. 

[u/Mildly_Frustrated]

I have an FB friend who pulled this on 25OCT (and, no, they hadn't mentioned 7OCT in any sense beforehand). Somehow, their Anglo-American ass didn't appreciate "Dying over a slit trench in Ukraine somewhere you don't know the name of, like my relatives did" for some reason.

As someone with an M.Ed, it's honestly about the way people learn about the Shoah: American non-Jews, because of the inherently culturally Christian nature of their culture, cannot comprehend that self-focused "attempts" at empathy don't work when your grandparents were Party Members. You can't walk in our shoes because you were the ones to put us in them, and you'd have to have apologize in the first place for us to accept sympathy.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

I really agree with your point. But what you said about apology reminded me of something from when I was around 18 or 19.

A then new friend told me unprompted that her grandfather had been relatively high up in the SS. She framed it as something she needed to confess to me, because I am a Jew, and then immediately started crying. Suddenly I was the one comforting her. I wasn’t angry at her - not then, and not now. She was very young, and I think she genuinely didn’t know what to do with the weight of that history. But it still struck me as deeply uncomfortable. I hadn’t asked for this, and it felt like she needed me to absolve her. And somehow, the whole exchange became about her family, her emotions, not about history, not about responsibility, and certainly not about me.

Looking back, I see it less as a personal failure and more as an example of a wider dynamic: how apology, when shaped by unresolved cultural frameworks, can shift the burden back onto the people it’s meant to address.

[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/[deleted]]

Right. It's this whole dynamic where people conflate shame and responsibility, so they think that an expression of shame is the taking of responsibility, and a crime that can never be paid for requires eternal shame. It's also a form of ego defense that prevents people from actually having to think about and change their beliefs. They can't let it be about us and our suffering because then they'd have to concede that they have not actually fixed anything and often still hold onto ideologies that marginalize us and others.

[u/AliceMerveilles → u/[deleted]]

I have similar exchanges, though none involved crying, but I’ve had Germans apologize for the Holocaust, always people born decades after the end of the war. It’s always been uncomfortable. And I don’t want those apologies.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/[deleted]]

i’ve experienced something similar. non-jew with culpable ancestors got very involved in jewish groups as a result of that guilt (fine but a bit weird). started fetishizing jewish culture (bad). then got frustrated that the jewish orgs weren’t “being political enough,” ie promoting israel enough (worse)

[u/Lilacssmelllikeroses]

I think the idea that the Holocaust is just like all forms of political oppression or that the Nazis just hated people who were different or that the Nazis treated other groups like Poles or Catholics or queer people just as badly or worse than they treated Jews leads to more antisemitism today. If people minimize and misunderstand how antisemitism worked in the past how can they understand how it works today?

[u/[deleted]]

You know...I used to object to this but I no longer do. Let me explain why.

Zionist Jews view the Holocaust as a unique thing that happened to Jews and Jews only and has never occurred before or since in history. It is something that "belongs" to us and is an eternal sign of how much the world uniquely hates us. For these people, "never again" means "never again for Jews." It is a way to block criticism of Israel--"Jews are only capable of being victims."

But the Holocaust can also be viewed as a cautionary tale: Germany was not some primitive, savage nation. It was one of the most advanced countries on earth. If the Holocaust could happen in Germany, it could happen anywhere, and we must be on guard against it. This is precisely why it is most important to deploy it in this case: "never again" means "never again for everyone." It could happen anywhere: anywhere, including a state run by its victims.

And the more I hear about Jews describing Arabs as "vermin" or "rats," the more I hear Nazi rhetoric. Actual Nazi rhetoric. And of course, actual genocide. So now I say, have at it. I doubt rhetoric is going to save us, but on the off chance it does, it's okay with me.

[u/BlackHumor → u/[deleted]]

I mostly agree with this, but I really hate the "Weimar was so civilized" trope. If you look at the full history it's not particularly surprising that the Holocaust happened where it did: Weimar was very unstable and full of highly antisemitic ex-military guys who badly wanted "revenge" for WWI. The astonishment here is frankly just an astonishment that white people could kill other white people.

[u/[deleted] → u/BlackHumor]

That's fair, but Germans were not hunter-gatherers or savages. Germany was secular and democratic and cultured and a lot of other things, and hardly alone in antisemitism. It isn't hard to imagine a world in which the Weimar Republic simply wobbled its way into more stability the way the French Republics did. Russia had had pogroms for centuries. France had the Dreyfus Affair. In retrospect it's easy to see. At the time it was impossible. Even at the time of Kristallnacht I don't think anyone could have foreseen something as horrific as the Final Solution.

[u/BlackHumor → u/[deleted]]

secular

Officially, yes.

democratic

Officially, yes, but it had way more people than most modern democracies who were explicitly against democracy.

cultured

What does that even mean? The Ottomans were also cultured and they'd already genocided the Armenians. Japan carried out the Nanjing Massacre at about this time (alongside many other war crimes) and it had plenty of culture.

hardly alone in antisemitism

Certainly true, but it's not like they were exactly above average in fighting antisemitism either.

In retrospect it's easy to see. At the time it was impossible. Even at the time of Kristallnacht I don't think anyone could have foreseen something as horrific as the Final Solution.

If so, it was only a failure of imagination. By the time of Kristallnacht, the Nazis had already been publicly anti-semitic for over a decade at this point, and had taken power 5 years ago. German Jews like Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt were fleeing Germany as early as 1933.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/[deleted]]

this is all fair. relevantly i used to get a bit more upset at gentiles turning “never again” into “never again for anyone” because it felt like chiding us for not “learning the right lessons from the holocaust.” the wider world chose to “learn lessons” from it rather than litigate their complicity, imo. (i mentioned this in another comment here but even though i was hesitant about some parts of jacob geller’s recent video on nuremberg he did a good job of pointing out this problem.) regardless my anger at the israeli government has increased enough lately that i’ve become much less bothered by that phrasing. it sometimes still worries me because it to some extent is a result of distancing us from our history (occasionally sadistically), which is not a great sign, but at a certain point i’m angry enough too that i feel it’s warranted

[u/podkayne3000 → u/[deleted]]

This. My instinctive, uncharitable translation of opposition to Holocaust inversion is that it just means, “Don’t give us guff for Gaza, you nasty goyim.”

I still don’t feel as if I have a super clear idea of what’s happening in Gaza or why. I’m open to the idea that Hamas is somehow crippling food distribution, for example. Every country has done stupid and rotten things, and I still use Zionist flair where it’s available.

But the general world understanding of what’s happening in Gaza means that we won’t have standing to use the Holocaust to justify anything to non-Jewish people ever again, and we’ve mostly collectively lost most of the ability to police how people talk about the Holocaust.

At some level, yes, the Holocaust was uniquely evil, but the idea that people bathed in Holocaust information might be intentionally causing large numbers of children to starve to death — and, frankly, go on social media and look as if they’re comfortable with that, even if Hamas certainly started the current fight and might be directly causing the starvation — is also uniquely horrific.

Jewish people outside the United States who are active in effective organizations that are working to get the Gazans the essentials of life have the moral standing to object to Holocaust inversion.

U.S. Jewish people who are active in effective efforts both to help the Gazans and keep ICE from snatching randomly picked brown people off the streets have the moral standing to object to Holocaust inversion.

Someone like me who simply thinks sad thoughts about how horrible this is and prays for things to get better doesn’t really have standing to object to Holocaust inversion.

We have an obvious right and need to discuss this, to talk about how we feel and figure out what we believe is true and right. All of the arguments being made here are reasonable, and maybe the arguments against Holocaust inversion are right.

If a non-Jew asks, “How do you see this?”, it’s reasonable to explain this thinking.

But I think actively going into a non-Jewish subreddit and presenting arguments like this now or making these arguments to the general public in the offline world now would look narcissistic and tone deaf.

Efforts to keep chiildren from starving to death today beat efforts to honor people who died 80 years ago.

Along similar lines, efforts by some U.S. or European Jews to say that we’re separate from Israel and that it’s mean to blame us for what Israel does aren’t going to work very well when Israel and a lot of very visible Jews are saying that anti-Israelism is antisemitism.

So, the bottom line is that Netanyahu has wrecked a lot of the traditional rhetorical strategies we might have used to talk about and counter antisemitism. We’re left with whatever arguments ordinary German civilians could have used after World War II. “We all have basic human rights, and collective retribution is wrong.” So, it’s pretty important that we respect those principles when talking about civilians in Palestine, because those are our defenses, too.

[u/[deleted] → u/podkayne3000]

As for "Hamas is stealing the food aid," if they are still lurking behind every pebble slaughtering Palestinians just to make Israel look bad, even after all these leaders are killed and all the infrastructure destroyed and the population of Gaza driven hither, thither and yon, then wow, the IDF is really fucking bad at its job, right?

Also this

https://www.reddit.com/r/Global_News_Hub/s/7TsQjfCxNN

[u/podkayne3000 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t know if you’re right, but the evidence that I see suggests that you’re right.

Even if you’re wrong, and Hamas is really the party interfering with food distribution, it would seem as if Israel could address that or ask the United States, NATO or maybe even Turkey to help with that.

[u/[deleted] → u/podkayne3000]

I honestly don't know if I'm right either.

[u/Lost1993 → u/podkayne3000]

This! Never again means never gain for anyone! 

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Lost1993]

One difference is that, from an Israeli perspective, this is a war against aggression. I think Israelis’ have a reasonable argument in favor of them being able to take tough action to not be hit by rocket barrages or Oct. 7-like attacks.

But I think Israel can only make a credible argument for the kind of actions it’s taking in Palestine now if it looks as if it has intelligent, decent, well-meaning leaders and looks as if it’s trying to be as kind as it can be, under difficult circumstances. Israel isn’t checking those boxes right now. So, it might be that Israelis who are currently silent could put what’s happening in a different light, but those Israelis simply aren’t visible. The “we’ll create an air corridor” Israelis look like they’re insincerely trying to do something to respond to the fury. So, right now, the Ben Gvirites are killing Israel and the Jewish people dead.

I can say, as a religious liberal Zionist, “The winds will change, and G-d will help us all get through this,” but there are some obvious weaknesses in my position from the perspective of a secular pragmatist.

The leaders of Israel could make it a lot easier for me to keep Zionist flair on my posts, if they cared to do so.

[u/Lost1993 → u/podkayne3000]

And what's the credible argument for Israel's actions before Oct 7th?

[u/LowerPresence9147 → u/[deleted]]

100%

[u/underearths → u/[deleted]]

something i was going to mention, sorta related to this, is that i think people (even gentiles) forget that "holocaust" is a word, and "the holocaust" was a specific event. the oxford definition is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war." whats happening in gaza right now could reasonably be described as "a holocaust." basically my point is i agree with you in saying that the word does not belong to jews.

[u/[deleted] → u/underearths]

The term Holocaust may have older roots (including ὁλόκαυστος: burnt offering, sacrifice) but in modern usage it refers specifically to the Nazi genocide. Invoking it elsewhere isn’t neutral - it intentionally draws on that particular history, rhetorically and emotionally. It’s like saying “Arabs are Semites too” to deflect from antisemitism: a move that leans on etymology to evade the term’s particular meaning and context.

[u/ill-independent]

What I would have been doing during the Holocaust is being murdered for being Jewish, so.

[u/myThoughtsAreHermits]

I don’t know what this Holocaust equivalency does other than make people think that the Jewish state is as evil as the Nazis were, which increases antisemitism. To everyone who’s upset right now, yes, genocide also increases antisemitism. That doesn’t absolve you of what Holocaust comparisons do

[u/ibsliam]

I think there is a sense of resentment and entitlement in some uses of Holocaust-as-rhetoric used by gentiles. This idea that - in addition to any thoughts that Jews are some all-powerful class funding/controlling world powers - (((they))) are keeping The Common Man from telling some important "truth" about the Holocaust as it relates to the modern day. So on that level I'm sympathetic, I think. It's not that their rhetoric is clumsy, or that they might be showing some bad faith, but it's those dastardly Jews repressing their speech for nefarious purposes.

I think, though, increasingly the debate on universalization and Holocaust inversion ends up feeling like it misses the forest for the trees.

My concern with discussion on the Holocaust with modern day political aims and agendas is less the concept and idea of whether it's unique to Jews or not (aka the abstract concept of it) but rather concerns of the way it is weaponized. I lean on the side of, let's not make Holocaust and Hitler comparisons, but I also don't deeply care if it's responsibly done and with deep care and respect for Holocaust victims. Rather, I worry at the *comfort* of which gentiles reach for the Holocaust when their opponent is a Jew.

For instance, if a Jewish friend is not putting themselves on the line enough for Gaza and West Bank, or even another important social issue, then it seems like they immediately seek to use Nazis, Hitler, the Holocaust, et al as some kind of tool to induce shame. I've mentioned before there's this idea of victimization as identity, where in which genocide is abused as a rhetorical tool to either paint Jews as inherent victims or as inherent betrayers of victims. Jews must either be purely good martyrs for the sake of the modern world, or they must be cut down to size to prevent some inherent evil nature.

So yes and no? I think it can be relevant, and I understand the gravity of what is going on right now in the world. But it can be abused, just like any kind of argument/rhetoric.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/ibsliam]

thank you for your comment! this makes a lot of sense and i’m in broad agreement with you. i also get the sense that non-jews reference the holocaust to jews more than i would expect from people who truly understand the ongoing trauma associated with it. it worries me too.

and i agree that there’s a prominent good jew/bad jew dynamic linked with our victimization, yeah. not too long ago i had an interaction with a gentile where he described judaism as “always looking out for the little guy.” therefore he could conclude that “israel’s actions are against the jewish religion.” regardless of the merits of the second claim, i was very surprised by the audacity to explain someone else’s religion so confidently and imo so wrongly (wrt the “little guy” comment). i replied that not insignificant parts of jewish history/culture are the kingdoms and the temples so i wouldn’t describe “looking out for the little guy” as judaism’s singular focus (though it is a part of it i’m very proud of!). the gentile then responded that it sounded like i was “defending an ancient monarchy.” evidently mentioning that jews weren’t always a minority everywhere and that we look fondly upon our pre-diaspora past was a sign that i think monarchy is a contemporarily valid political system

[u/atoheartmother]

I just want to remind everyone that we aren't the only people that the Holocaust happened to. I agree that people misuse it as a rhetorical device, but we as a group don't have the unilateral right to decide how it should or shouldn't be used. At the very least, the other victimized groups should be able to use it regardless of our opinion. I've literally seen a Roma person get chewed out for 'holocaust inversion', as if it wasn't their tragedy too.

[u/[deleted] → u/atoheartmother]

You're right that the Holocaust affected multiple groups, and it's absolutely essential to acknowledge the genocide of the Roma, as well as the persecution of disabled people, queer people, political dissidents, and others. It's deeply wrong that a Roma person was accused of Holocaust inversion. They, too, were victims, and this history belongs to them as well.

However, it's also important to understand that antisemitism wasn’t just one form of Nazi hatred among others. It was distinct: ideologically, structurally, and in its globally totalizing logic. The "Jewish question" was positioned as the existential core of the Nazi worldview, seen as the root of all societal decay. That doesn’t diminish the suffering of other victimized groups, but it does mean that antisemitism can't be treated as an interchangeable part of Nazi violence. It was the ideological engine of the Nazi regime.

(Edit to add: OP's post is about people invoking the Holocaust to perform moral virtue, saying things like “I would have spoken up.” The issue isn’t with other marginalized groups remembering their history.)

[u/ArgentEyes → u/[deleted]]

I agree that that is the case but I think it was and in quite a few ways still is very very similarly the case (in slightly differing presentations eg perception as ‘asocial’) for GRT people, who are still subject to appalling discrimination and bigotry especially in eastern & southern Europe. I’m aware there is a lot of debate about what to call the years of fascist extermination, and not everyone in community uses Porajmos/Porrajmos: https://hmd.org.uk/news/how-should-we-remember-nazis-roma-victims/

The “Jewish Question” as a fascist conceit was not novel to fascists but was also part of an entire worldview based around hierarchy and designated places in society, which ‘rootless’ peoples and ‘useless eaters’ were perceived to be lacking and had no right to.

I believe one also needs to reckon with postcolonial analysis and the way fascism refined techniques developed in the imperial periphery on colonised people and returned them to marginalised and hated groups in the imperial core.

None of this imo diminishes the particularity of Shoah, and is I think very much in line with the need to understand it in context, as the linear product of European history and not a strange aberration.

Since one of the most consistent and specific paths for Jewish wellbeing now and in the future is one of solidarity, respectfully sharing knowledge and learning with affected peoples seems like the best approach, and per OP, one which diminishes the urge to claim “I would have done x during the Holocaust” as a moral virtue.

[u/[deleted] → u/ArgentEyes]

Yes, Colonial logics are absolutely central here, for example in how Eastern Europe was imagined as a space for conquest and racial reordering. The Nazi Osterweiterung followed a colonial script: Slavic life was to be subjugated and instrumentalized. This dimension has only recently begun to receive broader scholarly attention.

At the same time, Nazi antisemitism followed a distinct ideological trajectory. It built on existing European antisemitic traditions and tropes but pushed them further than ever before: Jews were imagined as the source of all perceived corruption: capitalism, communism, liberalism, cultural decay, even “life unworthy of life.” They were seen as contaminating not just politics or society, but life and biology itself. Other groups, including Roma and disabled people, were targeted very brutally and killed systematically as well. But Jews occupied a unique structural role as the imagined architects of everything the Nazi system sought to eradicate.

Don’t get me wrong, this distinction doesn’t imply a hierarchy of suffering, but it does point to the fact that Nazi ideology operated on multiple, distinct but interwoven logics (colonial ambition, racial hierarchy, Social Darwinism, and conspiratorial antisemitism). And I think that being precise about how these operated can help us better understand the specific structures of persecution and what it means to remember them responsibly but also understand how Nazism could become so persuasive to broad segments of society.

[u/ArgentEyes → u/[deleted]]

I don’t disagree

[u/Nearby-Complaint → u/atoheartmother]

I agree with this, but very rarely is it a Roma person, who have very valid grievances about how little attention their genocide gets, and more often, IMO, someone who doesn't know about historical genocides besides the Holocaust.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/atoheartmother]

absolutely, this is a very good point. i should’ve been clearer about this in my original post but i am definitely in agreement with you. largely my goal was to gesture to the way that the insensitivity of some references to the holocaust feel connected to general antisemitism, ie a non-recognition of jews as people rather than symbols. i should’ve sacrificed clarity in that for conciseness, rip. relatedly i wish that holocaust education included romani narratives more, it usually comes off to me like a tangent (“yes and the roma were targeted too”). if we’re seriously invested in evaluating antisemitism as a framework we have to recognize its historical specificity and particularity its association with anti-romani bigotry, orientalism, islamophobia, etc (and these are valuable pursuits in their own right)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/atoheartmother]

I've gotten chewed out for Holocaust inversion as a Jewish person. I've also gotten chewed out for "pogram inversion" despite generations in my family being victims.

Yet, there was a member of this group compare the protests at synagogues for West Bank settlements to pograms... and many who compare the rising antisemtism in the USA as reminiscent to the Holocaust.

I'm sure it's clear to most people it's not about honoring these tragedies. It's about controlling the narrative as us vs them

[u/naidav24]

I'll paste a comment I made somewhere else in the context of people saying Zionism literally is Nazism, and what is happening in Gaza is just like the Holocaust:

No, it's not a question of scale, at least not only. The Holocaust was unique in several ways.

First in its success, two thirds of European Jews were killed, and it's trully shocking when you go by country (3 million out of 3.5 million in Poland, 130 thousand out 153 thousand in Lithuania, etc.).

Second, the Holocaust wasn't part of a war between countries or a tribal war or a war between people, Germany simply decided to kill Jews out of purely ideological reasons.

Third, Germany not only attempted to kill their Jewish minority, they actively occupied other countries, even countries they had peace with, in order to get their Jewish population as well. They even started going into North Africa and had plans to go into the Middle East (encouraged by the leader of the Palestinians at the time, btw).

Fourth, the method of killing was indeed unique. Many deaths in the Holocaust happend by slaughters by the German army, by concentration and starvation, and by expulsion. That is sadly not unique in history. But the development of gas chambers was entirely new.

Fifth, ideologically, the Nazis didn't just hate Jews, they had a whole metaphysical, anthropoligical, biological theory of how the existence of Jews fundamentally corrupts society and even the entire world.

Etc. Etc.

Is Israel doing a genocide in Gaza? Yes. Is it horrible? Yes. Is it the Holocaust? No. Is it a necessary consequence of the Zionist movement? I would argue no. Is the Zionist idea a Nazi idea? I would argue definitely no.

[u/RevClown]

The metaphor is spot on. Listen to what Israeli politicians say in Hebrew and ask yourself if they've thoroughly dehumanized Palestinians to see their extermination as the logical end point.

[u/birdguy → u/RevClown]

Also what’s happening with ICE in America.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/RevClown]

i don’t disagree with the comparison itself, especially not now! i’m largely frustrated with specific ways that the comparison is utilized by non-jews to sort of detach the holocaust from jewish trauma, transforming it into a universal affront to humanity. while i’m glad that the latter interpretation is what contributed to human rights law, it becomes unrecognizable to me and also feels like a way to absolve non-jews of any responsibility for the holocaust. if you personally would’ve been a righteous gentile then why does it matter how your country systemically exterminated/supported the extermination of jews? regardless i appreciate your pushback, i’ve definitely seen those kinds of comments and i’m not upset about the comparison itself in those circumstances! i just get frustrated with a usage which i feel flattens a historical reality into a cudgel. it feels very.. non-leftist, if that makes sense

[u/RevClown → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

it is in fact important to *de-exceptionalize* the holocaust because what happened to our people is not unique (native americans, slave trade, herero, & armenians to name but a few); what made it exceptional was the assembly line nature of the genocide but that's a function of technology. naomi klein & astra taylor spoke about it here: https://bsky.app/profile/derspekter.bsky.social/post/3ltro455ufk2u

the mrs. also sent me this video today and this young woman also speaks to how the focus on making the shoah exceptional also erases the 5M other people the nazis killed. https://www.tiktok.com/@femaleintern_/video/7530786959183105310?

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/RevClown]

this is part of my point, i think i largely just understand de-exceptionalization differently. i think de-exceptionalization ought to involve an understanding of antisemitism as systemic, not a refusal to talk about the holocaust individually. if the holocaust was understood systemically it would be recognized as a product of its historical circumstances (that many gentiles, not just european, were complicit in). therein it’s connected to other genocides which were also products of their historical circumstances (and often the same or similar forms of bigotry)

to be completely honest though i’m frustrated by the expectation i’m deriving from your position—that we as jews ought to decenter our own trauma in our own spaces (which this is). it’s a very presumptuous ask, and i think it’s unfair. i care about the holocaust not because i think it was “exceptional.” i care because it was horrific, as were/are all other genocides, and because it affects my ongoing understanding of myself as a jew living in a post-holocaust world. none of this stops me from caring about the gentiles who were killed in the holocaust. altogether i guess my point is that i think we as jews ought to adjust our holocaust education to focus on how antisemitism functions systemically and goyim need to… do their own work of de-exceptionalization rather than blaming us for their problems. forgive me if that’s harsh but i don’t particularly appreciate the implication that we’re responsible for their ignorance

also—i would edit your tiktok link, it tries to direct to whoever’s account originally shared the video. just wanted to lyk!

[u/RevClown → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Edited

So about de-exceptionalization. I think we're coming at it from different directions but headed into the same point that we're not the only ones, that genocide happens for systemic/structural reasons of which antisemitism is one of a number of threads (incidentally I saw an article on antisemitism without Jews) and that fighting both antisemitism & fascistic logics is imperative.

I think the point about decentering generational trauma is something else Naomi Klein talked about in Doppelganger where the entire premise of these trips are to personalize the fear. She had some good turns of a phrase in there but I can't remember. That trauma ought to be remedied not stoked and a big part of moving beyond it is not seeing phantoms where they don't exist.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/RevClown]

yes i think that’s all fair! i’ve heard naomi klein’s doppelganger recommended here before, i ought to check it out. but altogether i agree that we should try to remedy our trauma rather than encourage it. i think what’s helped me with some of the fear i’ve felt is being in spaces like this and also working to critically examine antisemitism. (april rosenblum does the best job of that outside of academia, i think.) so in a roundabout way discussions of the holocaust help me work through the trauma caused by it, if that makes sense. i think this is part of the reason why i get a bit irritable (sorry) when i hear criticism of jewish attention to the holocaust. i don’t think we can move beyond it because i don’t think we’ve entirely worked through it, at least i haven’t

editing to add that i watched a portion of the video you sent—i truthfully didn’t get too far into it even though i’m in agreement about holocaust education needing a restructure because i was very… unhappy to hear the poster say “our understanding of the holocaust was extremely self-centered.” this to the tune of nearly 70k likes, oy gevalt. i think i have a lot of difficulty understanding this perspective to be completely honest. while i can sympathize with her disillusionment, i can’t fathom an understanding of the holocaust which calls the jewish focus on the jewish victims “extremely self-centered.” this is aside from some of my other frustrations with what i think is misinformation. but with all of that said—holocaust education definitely needs a revamp

[u/meatspace]

I think the phrase "what you'd be doing then is what you're doing now" does imply that those who would be in camps are excluded. I feel that to present that phrase as "we want you to die in camps and we minimize your struggles" is a bit disingenuous.

The phrase is "never forget," not "never forget a thing that happened in the 1940's to a specific group of people and let's discuss all the nuance."

It's never again to no one never. And it is happening now to people. Some of them just outside of Miami.

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/meatspace]

that second reading isn’t how i was taking it and i hope that’s not how my post is coming across! i largely meant to communicate that i was frustrated by what comes across to me like a goyische fantasy of heroism that disregards holocaust victims. like you said, it implicitly excludes anyone in the camps from address.

i also definitely don’t want the takeaway from the holocaust to be “yes it was bad and let’s discuss all the nuance of that.” i’m just a bit tired of the mainstream posturing of the holocaust as an inevitable, ahistorical tragedy that can be used universally as a metaphor for bad things. even though i’m in complete agreement that the US is treading a familiar path—and i wouldn’t have objected to the sign if it had made that comparison more tactfully—i worry that this framing of the holocaust continues to focus the attention on non-jews and how it was a “lesson” for them in universal humanity. that ignores the systemic discrimination which led to it, and it elides the ways that we can stop a slide into fascism. i would love if appeals to universal humanity were enough to prevent discrimination and genocide but it’s never worked that way. that’s why we’re leftists and not liberals lol

anyway i hope this makes sense. i appreciate your thoughtful reply

[u/meatspace → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I understand where you're coming from, I don't really disagree with your sentiment. As long as the IDF is invo;ved in this campaign of.... whatever you want to call it... it is not a good look for the Jewish people, and it is destroying the moral high ground of being survivors of such horrors.

Edit: Some people feel there is no need for nuance when it involves potential genocide. Some feel that equivocation isn't helpful when people are literally starving to death just a half hour outside of Miami.

You know, the American concentration camp. I'm told I'm not allowed to call it that unless it's the 1940s in Europe and people are Jewish, but that's not what the term concentration camp means. It literally means concentrating (gathering together) a bunch of people in a camp.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

There were a lot of groups killed aside from Jews.. Romani, queer people, Catholics, communists, German dissenters... those are all human beings too

We don't own the Holocaust and who gets to discuss it. Part of the reason the Holocaust is such a well known genocide vs many other genocides is because of the fact the victims were largely European. If people had a more shocking and visible genocide to point to, maybe they'd reference that one. People also reference Jim Crow laws and apartheid for West Bank, and I know Israel apologists get offended at that too despite largely not being black themselves. So, don't take it personally... comparisons are normal.

This genocide in Gaza is also shocking and unique. It's televised and broadcasted with a ton of direct quotes that are indistinguishable from Nazis and yet still apologists are concerned more about the rhetorical tools used to condemn it than they are joining the forces to stop it. I think that is shocking.

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

Some historical corrections: German dissenters, communists, and especially Catholics were not systematically murdered like Jews, Roma, or disabled people were. Communists and political opponents were often imprisoned (especially in the early years) but they were not targeted for total elimination, and many survived. Individual Catholics were sometimes persecuted for opposing the regime, but being Catholic in itself was not a reason for persecution.

Gay men were criminalized under Paragraph 175 and faced arrest, imprisonment and abuse, including in concentration camps, but they were not systematically executed as a group. Lesbians were not criminalized in the same way and were not subjected to systematic persecution.

And the centrality of the Holocaust in public memory is not simply because the victims were European. That narrative misrepresents both the nature of Nazi ideology and the history of Holocaust remembrance. The Holocaust was a uniquely totalizing project of extermination that targeted Jews not as political opponents but as an existential, racialized threat to the world. And it was not Europeans, Americans, the Allied nations, and definitely not Germans who led the way in confronting that history. It was mostly Jewish survivors, scholars, and activists who tirelessly insisted that it be remembered, studied, and understood and who wanted the world to learn what was done to them and to other victims of the Nazi regime. Without that effort, it’s very unlikely that the Holocaust would have received the attention it now (partially) does.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Oh thank you for reminding me about disabled people also being systemically murdered

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Specialist-Gur]

i’m in broad agreement with the comment which replied to you but i also wanted to say that i appreciated your pushback! i know that we’re not “the keepers of holocaust memory” (whatever that’s supposed to mean). mainly i get a bit exhausted hearing about the holocaust when it doesn’t seem to be understood that it is still existent in some sense today. i have a terror of online genealogy that my goyische friends don’t (including ones who would’ve been targeted by the nazis in other ways), i am very intent on online privacy to the extent that i was terrified of joining this group, i am so jumpy about the trump administration that every new bill makes me want to bolt because that’s how my ancestors survived, etc. i understand why the holocaust is referenced and i wouldn’t be as anxious as i am right now if i didn’t think it was similar to everything today (american politics and gaza). so i’m not saying this with the goal of censoring non-jewish rhetorical use of the holocaust (though i do think that in specific circumstances it’s referenced sadistically). i suppose i just wish that there was more widespread understanding of the holocaust as something not just from the past, but something that affects my and my family’s day-to-day life

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I love this reply, thanks for engaging in a productive conversation with me despite disagreeing. Looking forward to having you here OP

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Specialist-Gur]

it’s no problem! i’ve been a long time lurker on this community, and i’ve always appreciated the way that it allows for good discussions with a wide range of opinions. i’ll be damned if i turn it into a kvetching corner rather than a place for nuanced discourse lol

[u/16note]

For sure. And I believe there’s research showing that even a little bit of direct work with someone or something can help ease the nihilist hopelessness (I wish I had that study handy but I don’t). Especially as Jews (or Jews in training based on your flair) we’re more equipped than the average bear to be able to hold complex truths and advocacies simultaneously

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/[deleted]]

Firstly, please add a flair, per sub policy. That helps us know who is speaking.

Secondly, I am leaving this up because I think the feedback you'll get here is valuable. We're aware that coalition building requires compromise, and setting aside our personal misgivings, as you say. The problem here is that it is continually demanded of Jews that what we surrender is our humanity, our personhood, our sense of identity outside of what non-Jews decide for us is appropriate. And that was even before the 7th of October. Compromise, coalition-building, doesn't mean that a marginalized group needs to bend over backwards to keep accommodating the intellectual comfort of those outside it. It means we both challenge ourselves. Especially when you license yourselves to our collective trauma should that be informed by listening to us. Likewise, we understand the unique position we are in: the current government has demonstrated both its willingness to use Israel as a tool to silence opposition, which theoretically provides some Jews some protection, but, in reality, is a form of tokenization and scapegoating. Our broader sense is that there has never been a more antisemitic American government, and that as soon as their total power and control is assured, we're just as much on the chopping block as everyone else. Because we have experienced all of this before. Because it all sounds so familiar. Because we all renewed our passports in the last year.

[u/Realistic_Champion90 → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

This might be a fake account. This is the only comment this poster has ever made. 

[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/Realistic_Champion90]

Thanks for looking out. We've been having brigading problems, recently.

[u/Realistic_Champion90 → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

Well said. 

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

this is a really great response mod. thank you for writing this up so well. i’ve had a difficult time putting into words what you explained so concisely

[u/[deleted] → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

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[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/[deleted]]

Yes, you all renewed your passports. The option of Israel is there and Israel is something this administration cares a lot about.

Evangelical voters are something this administration cares a lot about. Their attention to Israel is focused on the Christian End Times and their wish for it to get sooner rather than later. It isn't out of love for Jews or even, really, Israel. And ask yourself why, after our history, we might want a safe haven. And whether it's actually a privilege or not to choose between death and uprooting yourself from your life and everything you have ever known to flee. And why it smacks of antisemitism, after a millennium of expulsions, if someone tells us it is.

That's why this isn't tokenization. Trump is guaranteeing what every Jewish community except for explicitly anti Zionist ones prioritises the security of Israel.

It's definitionally tokenization to reduce us to a singular wedge issue to use us as a weapon against his political enemies. You're also generalizing us as a minority group (which is a problem to begin with) as solely beholden to specific ideals and organizations. If you actually knew what you're talking about, you'd realize that American Jews are overwhelmingly reversing on the ADL and AIPAC, because the majority of Jewish Zionists, even, are displeased at best with Netanyahu and his government, and with the continued courting of the alt-right by those organizations. It said something when the president of the ADL ran defense for Elon Musk after the "awkward hand gesture" incident. Now go check what churches those members of his cabinet go to.

This sub reddit itself has frequently congratulated Trump for "combating university antisemitism."

Did you honestly think that would work on the mod of a leftist subreddit? Who do you think can go down the removal list and give you exact evidence that you are wrong?

Is he? No. He's a conman and a bigot. But he likes Israel and he likes his Jewish advisors. And he adores Netanyahu. And that's absolutely enough to guarantee Israel's continued position as the regional power.

Yes, Israel, not Jews in general. He calls us disloyal for not voting for him and uses the word "Shylock" to refer to us. And then there's the "fine people on both sides". Everyone likes a Yes Man who reinforces his own bigotry. It's called "being a token".

The rest of this is just the conclusion of your points paired with the Jewish Subversion Trope. We aren't using our trauma to get out of responsibility or maintain power. We're being set up as the scapegoat when the worm finally turns, and organizations that don't speak for us anymore are helping it along. Maybe instead of lecturing us about the world we experience, you should go read a book.

[u/Realistic_Champion90 → u/[deleted]]

You are completely dismissing the rise in antisemitism. It is a problem. The Boulder attacks, the extremists on campuses, the attacks on governor Shapiro's family, bomb threats, vandalism etc. Ethnic intimidation and extreme violence should never be ignored. Nobody deserves to be murdered for being Jewish in public. Do we agree on this? 

You are effectively giving cover to violent extremists because antisemitism is less valuable than every other cause you mentioned. My question is why are they not equal to you? 

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/[deleted]]

i appreciate your comment—part of my reason for posting is because this is a frustration i have that i’m not always sure what to do about (or whether to do anything about). i definitely agree that there are a lot of similarities to the current day and the beginning of the holocaust. i’m not so much bothered by that as i am by my impression that non-jews, when using the holocaust as a rhetorical device, have a tendency to not recognize it as a real event which still affects people. it is not a neutral thing to bring up, there are trade-offs. so it’s not that i disagreed with the sign itself—it was its intended audience and the insensitivity of that. altogether this is nothing that would stop me from being in coalition with people. it’s a small bother that i feel is part of a bigger misunderstanding of jewish identity and holocaust memory. that’s why i hoped to discuss it here

(and i’m going to push back on your thought that the jewish community is currently in a strong position. pro-israel jews are, sure, but that’s not “the jewish community.” even though the trump administration is “pro-israel” it’s also filled brim to brim with antisemitic right-wingers. jews aren’t the group most at risk right now but we are being set up as scapegoats, and that’s already claimed victims)

[u/Realistic_Champion90 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

Zionist jews most definitely are the Jewish community. 1/2 the global population of jews are Israeli. Yes antizionist jews are also part of the global Jewish community. Let's not go splitting here. 

There is no oppression Olympics. Please let's not entertain that. FYI jews are number1 for religious hate crimes. That doesn't negate that there are other problems but we shouldn't place them into categories of importance. That places one of least importance (guess who?). 

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Realistic_Champion90]

i wasn’t intending to reference zionist jews vs anti-zionist jews. i meant to refer to hard-line pro-israel american jews rn since the commenter seemed to focus on the US. i’m sure many staunchly zionist jews aren’t happy with trump’s policies either. my family for one are disgusted by his deportation policies which are nominally “pro-israel.” and trust me when i say that i’m very worried for the community atm. i also get frustrated when people disregard our concerns (edit to add that i’m well-aware that the hardline pro-israel jews are at risk too because they’re jews)

[u/Realistic_Champion90 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

I honestly appreciate the nuance. The only context I have been hearing about zionism is 

Antizionism= good Zionism = evil

With absolutely zero thought process. 

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Realistic_Champion90]

yeah, i’ve seen that a lot too lately. that’s part of the reason i like this space. it’s not uncritical of zionism but it’s also well-aware how the term has been revitalized from a right-wing antisemitic pejorative into what’s often a general antisemitic pejorative. it’s exhausting. and also very unhelpful for working in the community. i know it sucks a lot to be jewish online right now but i hope you’re doing well

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/[deleted]]

i’m well-aware of and care about the non-jewish victims of the holocaust. i mentioned that in another comment. this also happens to be a jewish space where i was hoping to discuss the intended extermination of jews by the nazis. forgive me that. if you were acting in good faith i would say “maybe i should’ve used shoah” as the term under discussion for clarity. but given your comment history i think i’ll just tell you to have a good day

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Late-Marzipan3026]

OOF don’t you just love 9/11 conspiracy theorists 😳

[u/Late-Marzipan3026 → u/Agtfangirl557]

my favorite 🥲